Chicago Barn to Wire BRIS
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


September 20, 2014, 01:11:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Casino's are going back to court.  (Read 2834 times)
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2009, 12:34:52 PM »

So how do you feel about the casinos using RICO to avoid paying a tax they don't like, even after multiple courts have told them it is legitimate?

I'm not familiar with this issue, but in general, if the casinos or any other business wants to protest a tax / payment / judgment they don't like, and they haven't exhausted all of their appeals and other legal moves -- hey, who am I to say it's wrong? As long as they follow the law and don't do anything dirty, like paying off judges and such, what's the problem? Let our legal process play out.

Casinos already pay a ton of money in taxes, so it's not like they are being shifty and trying to pay absolutely nothing. You have to agree that like cigarette smokers and alcohol users, casinos are a popular target for our brain-dead politicians, who would rather die than cut spending or just live with what they are getting now. If I was in casino management / ownership, I'd fight like hell, too -- when is it going to be "enough"?   
Report to moderator   Logged
Klink
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 693




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2009, 12:47:38 PM »

Sorry if my slang for excrement offended anyone...jeesh..

Anyway...both HV and Slim make valid points and, honestly, I'm not sure there truly is a right or wrong answer as it's just not a black and white situation, maybe IMO.

At the end of the day, the big picture scenario I usually fall back on is this: Is there a level playing field in the State of Illinois regarding opportunities for gambling expansion and the monies realized from? If you truly think there is, then I would agree that your feelings on the 3% cainso surcharge is unfair. But, I feel that the tracks have been stymied at every chance to add slots, gain a part of a license or anything else that would increase purse money, etc. And honestly trying to take off my horseman's hat and look at this objectively, that is why I feel the levelling of the playing field from this charge is fair.

Now..does that mean that racing, Illinois and otherwise, dug this grave? Absolutely they did. No question about it. As did the breeders, tracks, ADWs, TVGs, HRTVs, Breedrs Cup, etc, etc, etc...Everyone is guilty and sometimes I'm amazed that racing actually does as well as it sort of does Huh

Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2009, 01:04:44 PM »

How about granting the tracks the right to offer gaming at their facility and the casino's won't have to worry about giving up any of their money. Its getting to the point that racing won't survive without being subsidized. It is a sport on a severe decline and gaming availability will hinder their chances to stand alone. I say open up the market and get out of the courts so they can compete for the customers.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2009, 01:43:26 PM »

How about granting the tracks the right to offer gaming at their facility and the casino's won't have to worry about giving up any of their money. Its getting to the point that racing won't survive without being subsidized. It is a sport on a severe decline and gaming availability will hinder their chances to stand alone. I say open up the market and get out of the courts so they can compete for the customers.

I'm with you on this Mel, up to a point: at the actual racetracks, yes. At the OTB's, no.

Good luck selling it to the people that live near the racetracks, though.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3769




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2009, 02:08:15 PM »

How about granting the tracks the right to offer gaming at their facility and the casino's won't have to worry about giving up any of their money. Its getting to the point that racing won't survive without being subsidized. It is a sport on a severe decline and gaming availability will hinder their chances to stand alone. I say open up the market and get out of the courts so they can compete for the customers.
I pretty much agree with this comment and the ones before it.  Getting a subsidy from the casinos makes you feel weak and lame as a business.  I also agree with Janine in that there was a de facto quid pro quo between the tracks and the casinos back when this all started in the legislature years ago.  Maybe the tax breaks that the tracks got do offset the boats not having to cruise anymore and having more slots.  Maybe that makes the agreement equal.

I do believe that if your business is in a continuous slump, you have the right to redefine yourself to salvage your business.  For the tracks, that means alternative gaming added to racing.  For the casinos to use their political clout to block this, it is just as bad as tracks demanding money from the casinos.  I sure don't want alternative gaming at the track, thus changing the atmosphere of racing, but that probably is what is needed.

I just do not want Arlington turned into a flashing marquee.  Let alternative gaming supplement racing and not replace it.

Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 02:26:25 PM »

Let alternative gaming supplement racing and not replace it.

That's an extremely tall order, a balancing act that no other slotracing track has mastered -- when alternative gaming has come to the other places, the gaming positions fill, and you can fire a cannon through the grandstand out by the track and not hit anybody.

Except on "special" days like Million day, I'd expect about the same at AP...at Hawthorne, it would be me and the imaginary homeless guys (that the Hawthorne haters claim to have to "step over" to get in the place) watching the live races, and everyone else would be at the slots.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3769




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 02:37:32 PM »

That's an extremely tall order, a balancing act that no other slotracing track has mastered -- when alternative gaming has come to the other places, the gaming positions fill, and you can fire a cannon through the grandstand out by the track and not hit anybody.

Except on "special" days like Million day, I'd expect about the same at AP...at Hawthorne, it would be me and the imaginary homeless guys (that the Hawthorne haters claim to have to "step over" to get in the place) watching the live races, and everyone else would be at the slots.

We have not had alternative gaming at the big tracks, for the most part, so we do not know if the results will be the same there as they are at the small tracks.  The only exception is Woodbine, and it seems to have not hurt racing there.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2009, 02:49:30 PM »

The only exception is Woodbine, and it seems to have not hurt racing there.

The racing is very good at Woodbine, as their purses are high, and they are engaging in some no-holds-barred provincialism up there, like giving bonus awards to winners whose sires stand "all year" in Canada -- that's state-bred tactics on steroids...

...but are there any fans in the stands? Ever notice that they *never* give us a shot of the grandstand at Woodbine, just like Arlington won't on a Thursday or any other day that there are tons of empty seats?
Report to moderator   Logged
Earl Sande
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2126




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2009, 03:29:52 PM »

That's an extremely tall order, a balancing act that no other slotracing track has mastered -- when alternative gaming has come to the other places, the gaming positions fill, and you can fire a cannon through the grandstand out by the track and not hit anybody.


Prairie Meadows has good crowds watching the races on the weekends.
They don't bet much, but the bodies are there.
And how about Oaklawn?
Report to moderator   Logged
nmslim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 869




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2009, 04:23:29 PM »

What is the direction of the revenue from the video poker that was just approved?Who does it go to?That is how Fair Grounds got their purses up.Will the racetracks get any of that?
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2009, 05:35:37 PM »

Prairie Meadows has good crowds watching the races on the weekends.
They don't bet much, but the bodies are there.
And how about Oaklawn?

Prairie Meadows conveniently omits attendance totals, so I wonder what you consider to be "good crowds".

Oaklawn -- you're right, they have pretty good attendance. Do they have a full casino, or just slots? Also, do they have any other casinos around? Just wondering.

Oaklawn is a "boutique" meeting, though. I think you could put a casino right on the grounds at Saratoga and Del Mar, too, and not hurt the racing nor the racing attendance. Shorter, focused meets with decent horses have a more special feeling to them.

But at a race meet that slogs on and on, like AP? Fat chance -- most days, it will end up being pretty empty out by the track, and a cacophony of ding-ding-ding-ding-ding! inside.

Report to moderator   Logged
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1016




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2009, 06:33:46 PM »

How about granting the tracks the right to offer gaming at their facility and the casino's won't have to worry about giving up any of their money. Its getting to the point that racing won't survive without being subsidized. It is a sport on a severe decline and gaming availability will hinder their chances to stand alone. I say open up the market and get out of the courts so they can compete for the customers.

I agree Mel. The market should be opened to anyone (not just casinos and tracks) that can pass the appropriate background checks and pay whatever the licensing fee and taxes are determined to be. Let those who qualify compete for customers. The problem IMHO with this is that the tracks will lose if they are forced to compete.
Report to moderator   Logged
Klink
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 693




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2009, 08:24:02 PM »

What is the direction of the revenue from the video poker that was just approved?Who does it go to?That is how Fair Grounds got their purses up.Will the racetracks get any of that?
That all goes to State/County/Schools/ road projects, etc. Plus, tracks are exempt from having video poker. Nothing to racing.

Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2009, 10:25:15 PM »

Prairie Meadows has good crowds watching the races on the weekends.
They don't bet much, but the bodies are there.
And how about Oaklawn?

Oaklawn is a great example of gaming not hurting the racing at all. They still get, I believe, the largest daily attendance in the country with the exception of Saratoga (short meet). I think that if you do it right with quality racing, like Oaklawn does, it can be successful. I believe failure is imminent without purse subsidies.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:30:04 PM by mel4600 » Report to moderator   Logged
Earl Sande
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2126




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2009, 09:16:53 AM »

Prairie Meadows conveniently omits attendance totals, so I wonder what you consider to be "good crowds".

Oaklawn -- you're right, they have pretty good attendance. Do they have a full casino, or just slots? Also, do they have any other casinos around? Just wondering.

Oaklawn is a "boutique" meeting, though. I think you could put a casino right on the grounds at Saratoga and Del Mar, too, and not hurt the racing nor the racing attendance. Shorter, focused meets with decent horses have a more special feeling to them.


In this day and age 2000 people is a crowd. Not sure how many are out on the giant PrM apron on a weekend night, but it's got top be close to that many. It's a fun place to go to the races, you should try it. They don't give a head count because you can walk in for free at any entrance.
I think OP got slots or VLTs or some damn thing to go with their bogus "Instant Racing" but am not sure. Maybe Mel can tell us.
Shorter focused meets were great in the 1930s just like they are now, but who wants the horsemen and track employees to have to live like a bunch of gypsies?
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2009, 10:27:49 AM »

Shorter focused meets were great in the 1930s just like they are now, but who wants the horsemen and track employees to have to live like a bunch of gypsies?

You've hit on something here that maybe should be in whole 'nother thread, but...I think a BIG part of the problem with American racing is that it went from a part-time endeavor that folks "dabbled in" -- while having other jobs / careers, and therefore other viable means of support -- to a full-time, year-round business that is expected to support the full weight of people's everyday existence.

Clearly, the current-day U.S. racing model of non-stop, "always racing somewhere and lots of it", is failing.
Report to moderator   Logged
nmslim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 869




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2009, 11:38:06 AM »

When I worked at Oaklawn,they would get over 50 thousand on Saturdays.Not bad for a town of around 20K then.Also,they did not always have Sunday racing.All the big outfits were there.
Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2009, 04:11:46 PM »

Oaklawn has a separate room for the gaming which includes slots, computer Black Jack tables, and computer No Limit Texas Holdem tables. They also have simulcast racing year round. The purses have gone up dramatically with only a small area of the total track square footage devoted to gaming. The gaming room is generally filled all the time with a waiting list. The track still maintains strong spectator numbers and in my opinion it is the most successful race track in the country. I have gone to Oaklawn in 1968 and it still feels the same when I go there now with a great racing atmosphere. If you never went to Oaklawn, I suggest you experience it once.
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.131 seconds with 17 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Arlington Million
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy