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Author Topic: Hawthorne rebates  (Read 2068 times)
big wally
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« on: February 21, 2006, 07:46:48 PM »

There are now only 1% rebates on races after 6:30pm. Is this new?
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 10:37:33 PM »

I just checked -- yes, it's true. Changed 1/1/2006.

I don't like it, but even though I don't bet much at night anymore, it's better than nothing...still a full 2 1/2 times what you get with Twin Spires.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 10:51:27 PM »

There was some talk going around late last year that they only made a couple cents per dollar bet on night time simulcasts anyhow, and were then giving it all away in rebates, so they were essentially making $0. Guess they decided to take action on that problem.
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 11:20:44 PM »

There was some talk going around late last year that they only made a couple cents per dollar bet on night time simulcasts anyhow, and were then giving it all away in rebates, so they were essentially making $0. Guess they decided to take action on that problem.


Yer right Terry. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's only 3 cents on the dollar.

Here's a good discussion point. I would rather have Hawthorne go back to 3 years ago when they gave a 2% reduced take-out on all races across the board on bets made on the live  Hawthorne signal. If they wanted to do something for the simulcast bettors, they could still have the club Hawthorne card for that, but I don't know if they could make it where the card would only register points for simulcast bets.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 02:37:20 PM »

Here's a good discussion point. I would rather have Hawthorne go back to 3 years ago when they gave a 2% reduced take-out on all races across the board on bets made on the live  Hawthorne signal. If they wanted to do something for the simulcast bettors, they could still have the club Hawthorne card for that, but I don't know if they could make it where the card would only register points for simulcast bets.

You would know this better than me, but I heard that when the Sportsman's people came over, they said their experience was bettors preferred the lump of rebate cash to the small dribs and drabs of reduced takeout, so that's the way the new program went.

One other thought. Reduced takeout favors the people winning. Doesn't matter what the price on the board is if you don't have a winning ticket. Over time the winners are going to end up with more of the "rebate" money than the losers. With the Club Haw rebate, even the worst of losers can console themselves that they are going to get some of their money back, the same percent as anyone else.
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 03:15:04 PM »

Yes Terry that's exactly what happened. NJC stated it was the preferred program and Hawthorne went with it.
You're also correct on both sides it your other statement. Reduced take-out certainly favors the winner, but..who bets to lose? Not me. I make a very good profit every year. I keep a register of all money bet, and all winners. On a bad year I make $2000.00. In my best years 1998 ($15,000.00+) and 2002($18,000.00+). Here is how it works:

Bet $20.00 box exacta 5-6...you win..winning odds are 6-1 and 7-1. payout is $192.00x10=$1920.00
with points card you receive 80 points which is worth .80cents in real money
with 2% reduced take-out $6.70 extra per each $2.00 bet=$67.00 in real money in your pocket.
which would you rather have?Huh

now take a:
bet $20.00 box exacta 5-6...you win...winning odds are 2-1 and 2-1 payout is $24.00x10=$240.00
with points card (same as above scenario)
with 2% reduced take-out .60cents per each $2.00 bet = $6.00 more in your pocket.

Only if you lose much more than you win is the card better.
If they could offer the card for all simulcast bets and 2% reduced take-out on the live product..it would attract alot more of the hard core gamblers from the offtrack parlors, and it would make everyone (the winners and the losers) happy.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 03:31:41 PM »

No one bets to lose, but most people lose. I believe it is something like only 5% of bettors make a profit, and the other 95% lose. You wouldn't expect it to be otherwise, with 20% of every dollar disappearing from the pools. So, you're looking at keeping 95% of your bettors engaged and interested in your rebate program. And you know that as soon as they get that $200 voucher, it goes right back through the windows anyhow.

As far as reduced takeout bringing in the hard cores from the OTB's, I don't believe it. I didn't see it when Sportsman's had their reduced on track takeout, and I didn't see it when Hawthorne did it. Full price every day instead of surcharge ripoff doesn't bring them downtown. They go where they feel comfortable and where it is convenient, and then sit there and call in their bets to their phone account. In addition, people in Illinois are betting 85% of their money on simulcasts anyhow. So what real difference would it make to most Joe Blows? It might make a small difference to a very few people betting large amounts of money on the local product using the facility tote equipment, but I think there's less and less of those. Any of them worth their salt are getting big rebates by betting in the Caribbean.
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 03:47:46 PM »

I'm not debating you on any of what you said Terry...you are 100% correct.

But if the tracks want to make more money(to better their product, raise purses, make more profit themselves) it would be the smart thing to do. Remember they make anywhere from 17 to 25% on every dollar bet on the live product. Then they split that with the horsemen.
on simulcast it's only something like 3 to 7%. Then they split that with the horsemen.
If they could get more bettors to bet on the live program they would be much better off in the long run.

I myself would prefer the reduced take-out even though I have religiously used my card for the last 3 years, because that is all they offer. I've probably cashed in for $200.00 well over 20 times, and yes the money went right back in to the coffers.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 06:35:22 PM »

On your 192 dollar example, I think you math is off, it would be a 5 dollar higher payoff according to my figures or 50 dollars for the 20 dollar bet. If and that is a big if you a break even player, you would win 1 out of 46 bets of this type - which would make it .80 x 46 or 36.80 so it isn't that big of a difference if you look at it that way. But you get paid for the simulcasting bets as well, it has to more than make up for it, not to mention most aren't even break even players. I'm not a mathemetician so my numbes may be off as well - but you get the drift.

I will back the vouchers as the better reward and business builder, they target more average players - the guy who may bet 50,000 a year or something, that type of player isn't going to notice the slightly lower takeout that much - but he sure remembers the free vouchers. You are never going to get the big players back unless you get much closer to 10 pecent rebate and that isn't going to happen - so this targeting of the "barracudas" instead of the "whales" would seem to make sense to me.
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 06:57:49 PM »

Well it looks like the majority of posters to this thread rarely win. I still would prefer the 2% reduced take-out for Hawthornes live product.
I still also think for simulcast wagering the card is better(because they couldn't offer anything better because they don't make as much profit.
I only bet Hawthorne and Arlington 99% of the times. Only during dark season I might bet a few hundred over 2 months time on other tracks.

I do see your points David and Terry, but for me I would make more money the other way.

Also, David your numbers were wrong. There is a correct way to compute the differance with 2% reduced take-out and as it is now.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 07:40:27 PM »

But if the tracks want to make more money(to better their product, raise purses, make more profit themselves) it would be the smart thing to do. Remember they make anywhere from 17 to 25% on every dollar bet on the live product. Then they split that with the horsemen.
on simulcast it's only something like 3 to 7%. Then they split that with the horsemen. If they could get more bettors to bet on the live program they would be much better off in the long run.

I don't think it's that low with simulcasts, is it? Take out an average 20%, pay a 3-4% signal fee, and keep the rest. Live it's take out an average 20%.

I agree getting more people to bet your signal, and do it on premises, is the best. I just don't think a couple % takeout reduction is a big enough motivation. Some years back, when Sportsman's had theirs, and you could see the higher numbers on the toteboard, people would sit at the OTB's and watch that, AND pay their 1.5-2.5% surcharge, and still not get off their butts to come to the track, just complain. "Too far, terrible traffic, bad neighborhood, waaah waaah waaah, they should give it to us too!", the excuses and whining went on and on. APCD Dan and RunSuckerRun can probably remember some conversations about that on the Derby List. Maybe if you dropped all the on-track takeout %'s by 7 points or something, so win was 10%, on up to Pick 3's for 18%, then maybe you'd get results. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 07:50:55 PM »

I did state that I wasn't a mathemetician, but the way I figure it if you have a 100,000 pool and take out 20.5 percent as it is now - that leaves 79,500 left, you take out the 828 bet on the winning combination, do some division add the 2 dollars back in and you have 192.029 rounded with breakage to 192.00.

You take 100,000 take out just 18.5 percent, that leaves you with 81,500, take out the same 828 dollars that was bet on the winner, do some division and add the 2 dollars back in and you come up with 196.8599 rounded down to 196.80 or 4.80 more per 2 dollar ticket than with 20.5 percent takeout.

If my math is wrong, and I don't think it is -  I apologize. I'm glad for you that you claim are ripping apart the pools - if you are actually doing that well and aren't only remembering your winners  and forgeting your losers you have done well. It is pretty easy to spout off on an internet board how well you are doing, usually everyone takes that with a grain of salt - the part about you that is laughable that you need to put down people who are more honest about results - whether you want to believe it or not the percentage of people who end up ahead after a year of steady play  isn't even the 95 percent that Terry says, it is higher than that, the percentage of players who end up in the black over a 5 year period is very very small (both of these being without rebates factored in).
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big wally
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 08:12:56 PM »

There was some talk going around late last year that they only made a couple cents per dollar bet on night time simulcasts anyhow, and were then giving it all away in rebates, so they were essentially making $0. Guess they decided to take action on that problem.


Are you guys telling me on Simulcast when Hawthorne is not the Host, they only get around 3%. I cant see why they would get more for days simulcast than night. Of that 3% they gave away 2%, if that is true they cant make a profit. Also, when they had those bonus double days when AP was the host are you telling me they lost 1!% for every $. No way, they must get more of the pie.

About the difference between 2% reduced take out and 2% rebates. Most people lose so I would go with the 2% rebate. Neither will  help their decline in on-track handle or attendance. They know it and you know it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 09:28:22 PM »

 If my math is wrong, and I don't think it is -  I apologize. I'm glad for you that you claim are ripping apart the pools - if you are actually doing that well and aren't only remembering your winners  and forgeting your losers you have done well. It is pretty easy to spout off on an internet board how well you are doing, usually everyone takes that with a grain of salt - the part about you that is laughable that you need to put down people who are more honest about results - whether you want to believe it or not the percentage of people who end up ahead after a year of steady play  isn't even the 95 percent that Terry says, it is higher than that, the percentage of players who end up in the black over a 5 year period is very very small (both of these being without rebates factored in).
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My apologies David. I never re-checked my figures when I made my last reply(foot in mouth).
You are right. It was $50.00. Blame it on my fat fingers..LOL
However, I did not put anyone down nor do I imply that I rip apart the pools. Until 1-1/2 years ago I bet almost every day of the year for the previous 16 or 17 years. If I bet 40k in a year and made 42k - I only made 2k profit. I had mostly 2 to 4k profit years. I had 2 excellent years though. I don't consider that "ripping apart" the pools. I just really like the excitement of the races. I started every day with 100bucks. I only bet trifectas. If I hit a big one or more the extra went in an envelope for other days. Sometimes I would bet a little more than 100 if I hit a real big trifecta. I also almost exclusively on our home tracks. So, for me I would prefer the 2% reduced take-out on the live races(on track).
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 09:35:37 PM »

Are you guys telling me on Simulcast when Hawthorne is not the Host, they only get around 3%. I cant see why they would get more for days simulcast than night. Of that 3% they gave away 2%, if that is true they cant make a profit. Also, when they had those bonus double days when AP was the host are you telling me they lost 1!% for every $. No way, they must get more of the pie.


No, it's anywhere from 3 to 7 or 8%. On dollars bet on Hawthorne from another track - Hawthorne gets 3 or 4%. On races bet on other tracks from Hawthorne it's about 5 to 8% after the split(depending on wager type). That's not really that much considering how many employees they have when racing live.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 09:54:12 PM »

Are you guys telling me on Simulcast when Hawthorne is not the Host, they only get around 3%. I cant see why they would get more for days simulcast than night. Of that 3% they gave away 2%, if that is true they cant make a profit. Also, when they had those bonus double days when AP was the host are you telling me they lost 1!% for every $. No way, they must get more of the pie.

I don't work at the track and look at their books, so I don't know for sure. I heard 2%. BeauNarro says he did work at the track, though in what capacity he hasn't said, and he says 3%.

Look at it this way. The simulcasting facility is who really takes your takeout, according to the takeout rate of the track on the TV. The average is 20%. At the end of the day, they have to pay part of that money, let's say 3%, to the track whose signal was on the TV, and they have to pay 1.5% tax to the state. There's also a city tax ringing up, but that is mostly paid by the surcharge. Who knows what else is ringing up. Of what's left, and I think that's maybe 12% or 13% of simulcast money, 1/2 goes to the horsemen. The other half is "track commission", and from what I understand, the ITW site (Hawthorne) then splits that 50-50 with the simulcast host track (let's say Balmoral). So you see, Hawthorne is not really making that much money on each dollar you bet.

After that, you have to pay wages, and utilities, and all the other stuff you have to pay to keep the place open, and there's not that many customers in the place at night to begin with (and damn few during the day these days, either), and not too many big money signals except for Meadowlands harness, then bottom line I don't think they were exactly raking it in. They probably sat down and did a pretty careful analysis of what's profitable and what's not. Or I might be totally wrong.

I would be surprised to see double points on daytime Arlington continue this summer, either. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they went to 1% rebate on any and all simulcast when they are not simulcast host.
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 10:05:51 PM »



I would be surprised to see double points on daytime Arlington continue this summer, either. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they went to 1% rebate on any and all simulcast when they are not simulcast host.


During the summer when my horses raced at Arlington I rakked up over 15,000 points on my twin spires card. I thought, "Alright! I can get a $200.00 voucher". I wnet to the redemption center upstairs and the lady said my 15,000 points could buy me an Arlington monogrammed t-shirt..LOL

I said that to say that at least Hawthorne is trying to give it back to us no matter how we would wish they do it.
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 12:11:54 AM »

Are you guys telling me on Simulcast when Hawthorne is not the Host, they only get around 3%. I cant see why they would get more for days simulcast than night. Of that 3% they gave away 2%, if that is true they cant make a profit. Also, when they had those bonus double days when AP was the host are you telling me they lost 1!% for every $. No way, they must get more of the pie.

About the difference between 2% reduced take out and 2% rebates. Most people lose so I would go with the 2% rebate. Neither will  help their decline in on-track handle or attendance. They know it and you know it.

The math gets wierd due to IL and the the Day/Night TB/Harness "Host Track" splits.  I don't know all the details, and could be wrong.  Plus the details on all the splits and pricing will make my brain melt. 

But basically, during Hawthorne's Live TB meet, they are the "IL Host Track" until 6:30 PM.  There is more money to be earned in fees from Simulcasting as the "Host Track" than the non-host ITB or OTB.  After 6:30PM, the operating Harness track becomes the "IL Host Track", and the day host earns less than they do during their "Host Track" period.  The tracks argue and jockey for racing dates, and the winter down-time "Host Track" status, because they still earn revenues, and earn more money for their purse accounts for their live meet, as the "Host Track". 

When AP is running live, it may have been a loss-leader to still pay the 4% rebate on AP races, since HAW was not the Host Track during the day.  However, there is a period in the evenings when Hawthorne runs harness that they become the "Night Host Track" and gain revenue on the wagers after 6:30 PM during that time period. 

Hope that helps some, with minimal brain melting.

By the way, the rebates are one of the big reasons I make the trip from 1 mile near AP down to Hawthorne, along with the Handicapping Center as Scott.  I've earned $1,800 over the last 2 years in Hawthorne Rewards (that would have been approx. $180 in Twin Spires Rewards, by the way).  I know other city dwellers that take the trains and/or buses to get to Hawthorne rewards.  It does make a difference to some of us.  Of course, it won't make much of a difference to the $2 bettor that comes once a week and bets $1 exacta boxes just the 9 live races, but that isn't worth expensive rewards anyway.  Rebates/Rewards should make much more of a difference for the large handle bettors, and much of that I suspect has to do with phone account wagering/rebate shops, some of it the Online Wagering.  The problem still remains that, due to really poor similcast pricing methods across the whole Racetrack industry, many simulcast outlets and alternate wagering providers have a better profit margin on a track's races than the live track does, and therefore can use rebates to steal the live track's own customers.  But that's a whole 'nother story, and the melting, at least for me, has started. 


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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2006, 08:45:23 AM »

Beau, you've been in the black every year for 16 or 17 years?
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2006, 11:36:39 AM »

Beau, you've been in the black every year for 16 or 17 years?

David,
No I had 1 year where I lost close to 3k, 1 year when I lost almost 1k, and 1 year where I lost over 400,
but overall I'm ahead of the game. I do it more as a hobby-not to support my family. I was considered addicted for all those years, I HAD to bet or I felt shitty. Now I only bet when my horses run, and on those days I will only bet 1 to 3 races. Occassionally I bet on YouBet(rarely), but I don't like it because I lose more than win when betting other tracks.
My late father-in-law never ran away from home when he was 15. He enlisted in the Army during world war2. After the war-the day he got home-his older cousin took him to Hawthorne. He never collected a paycheck for the rest of his life. He died at the age of 60. He only bet the horses(t-breds). He owned 2 different homes, bought a new car every 3 years, and put all 3 of his kids through Catholic school from knidergarten thru high school---all from gambling on the horses. He never went through forclosure or bankrupcy.
I also know a few people that make profits from horse gambling, but most people don't want to talk about wins and losses, so it's hard to know the exact amount of real winners. I know lots of guys that win alot, but always say they lose so that people leave them alone.
For the 9 years that I worked at hawthorne, I probably handed out 10 to 50 bucks a day to the "stoopers". (I yell loud when I win). I'm supersticious. I beleive that "you've got to give it away to keep it".
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2006, 11:46:29 AM »

.

By the way, the rebates are one of the big reasons I make the trip from 1 mile near AP down to Hawthorne, along with the Handicapping Center as Scott.  I've earned $1,800 over the last 2 years in Hawthorne Rewards (that would have been approx. $180 in Twin Spires Rewards, by the way).  I know other city dwellers that take the trains and/or buses to get to Hawthorne rewards.  It does make a difference to some of us.  Of course, it won't make much of a difference to the $2 bettor that comes once a week and bets $1 exacta boxes just the 9 live races, but that isn't worth expensive rewards anyway.  Rebates/Rewards should make much more of a difference for the large handle bettors, and much of that I suspect has to do with phone account wagering/rebate shops, some of it the Online Wagering.  The problem still remains that, due to really poor similcast pricing methods across the whole Racetrack industry, many simulcast outlets and alternate wagering providers have a better profit margin on a track's races than the live track does, and therefore can use rebates to steal the live track's own customers.  But that's a whole 'nother story, and the melting, at least for me, has started. 




Hey Steve,

The next time you see Scott tell him the guy that nicknamed him "twinkle toes" says HI!

I'm not sure, but I think Scott would prefer the 2% reduced take-out like I do. I seem to remember a conversation to that effect a year or so ago.
On that note--I think Scott is a great guy for Hawthorne. He ran some good handicapping tourneys over the years sometimes with as many as 800 sign-ups. He's very committed to getting people to the track, and trying to help them make money thru wagering. He also writes some great articles for the magazines.
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2006, 03:20:10 PM »

Hey Steve,

The next time you see Scott tell him the guy that nicknamed him "twinkle toes" says HI!

LOL!  I sure will!  He got a really big kick out of that!   Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 05:23:36 PM »

Beau, it was a different game 30 - 50 years ago, even 20 years ago, I know plenty of people who were solid back then. I'll clarify myself - I know of nobody who can or is making a living betting horses without a rebate or a trust fund to back them in the modern era, and I know alot of people who play at the highest level and have the sharpest minds in the game. I do know alot of people who claim to make a living betting the horses - but they are really the trust fund babies that JF is often slamming.
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2006, 06:34:11 PM »

Beau, it was a different game 30 - 50 years ago, even 20 years ago, I know plenty of people who were solid back then. I'll clarify myself - I know of nobody who can or is making a living betting horses without a rebate or a trust fund to back them in the modern era, and I know alot of people who play at the highest level and have the sharpest minds in the game. I do know alot of people who claim to make a living betting the horses - but they are really the trust fund babies that JF is often slamming.

The game changed when BEYER began posting his numbers. The best of the best might have been able to make 15% before 1990. With beyer posting his numbers. dumb money leaving the pools, and whales changing odds in the last seconds the game is certaintly tougher. The guys I know who still bet major sums only do it offshore hope to break even and live off rebates. I dont dispute anyone saying they beat the races. You do the math if 10 people on this forum claim they win, other say they lose 3 or 4%, who are the people that lose 30 to 40% they have to be out there.
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