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Author Topic: When does Chicago circuit move to AP??  (Read 2225 times)
Joe B
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« on: March 29, 2009, 10:44:13 AM »

I noticed a Hawthorne place pick 9 carryover after saturdays card...$3200 or so...in a similar spot last year i got lucky and took down the whole pool...and i like to take a shot when theres a small carryover...if you find a bomb or two theres a chance to take down a pool of 5 or 6 grand....

So i bought the form for sundays card......only 8 races??  and field sizes of 6,6,6,7,6,6,7,8....has chicago tbred scene gotten this pathetic??  is the place pick 9 a wager you can only make on saturdays now??

Note to Tim Carey who would be flippin burgers somewhere if his uncle and dad weren't the track owners....You deserve everything you get.....give up trying to run the business and sell the land....maybe in the summertime you can try to open up a lemonade stand on laramie ave...maybe you might have some success at that....
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NYRA 792
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2009, 10:48:16 AM »

Arlington opens May 1st
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General Powell
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 12:08:15 PM »

Hopefully some FG horses will come here next week while others go to Keeneland--Though Thursdays entries are still very puny.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 12:22:29 PM »

I noticed a Hawthorne place pick 9 carryover after saturdays card...$3200 or so...in a similar spot last year i got lucky and took down the whole pool...and i like to take a shot when theres a small carryover...if you find a bomb or two theres a chance to take down a pool of 5 or 6 grand....

So i bought the form for sundays card......only 8 races??  and field sizes of 6,6,6,7,6,6,7,8

It should be very easy for you to take down the Pick 6 then. Good luck!
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2009, 12:40:52 PM »

So i bought the form for sundays card......only 8 races??  and field sizes of 6,6,6,7,6,6,7,8....has chicago tbred scene gotten this pathetic??  is the place pick 9 a wager you can only make on saturdays now??

Note to Tim Carey who would be flippin burgers somewhere if his uncle and dad weren't the track owners....You deserve everything you get.....give up trying to run the business and sell the land....maybe in the summertime you can try to open up a lemonade stand on laramie ave...maybe you might have some success at that....

Joe B, I'm sure you will stop back and update this thread after AP gets going and tell us about their whopper-sized, over-subscribed fields. As if.

It's easy to criticize Hawthorne before anyone gets a look at what the current economy and crappy purses are going to do to field sizes at AP.

I predict that AP is going to have similar difficulty, as horses that ship in from FG and other tracks that are wrapping up will be offset by horses that ship out of Chicago. And reports of "barns filling up" at AP never disclose just how many of those stalls are occupied by 2 year olds, many of whom won't race at AP but are at the track for training and storage.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2009, 12:51:28 PM »

Joe B, I'm sure you will stop back and update this thread after AP gets going and tell us about their whopper-sized, over-subscribed fields. As if.

It's easy to criticize Hawthorne before anyone gets a look at what the current economy and crappy purses are going to do to field sizes at AP.

Arlington should do better since they only race 4 days a week until mid-June or whenever. Hawthorne and the horsemen and the employees who will likely all become part-timers really need to bite the bullet and do the same, for the sake of the wagering product. It's a tough product to want to bet right now.

OTOH, the simulcast facility upgrades for this year are really good, and I notice a lot more people there than I did any time last year, so maybe they're making it all up on simulcasts.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2009, 12:57:08 PM »

One more thought in relation to the question of the title and Joe B.'s frustration - does Arlington even offer a Place Pick 9?
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2009, 01:17:13 PM »

Arlington should do better since they only race 4 days a week until mid-June or whenever. Hawthorne and the horsemen and the employees who will likely all become part-timers really need to bite the bullet and do the same, for the sake of the wagering product. It's a tough product to want to bet right now.

I agree that Hawthorne field sizes would have benefitted from 4-day racing weeks, but further reduction in live dates is a damn tough pill to swallow when some fat f*cking pig up north keeps gobbling up more and more of the t-bred racing calendar every year.
 
Based on current field sizes at Hawthorne, AP still won't average 8 horses a race even at 4 days per week...not unless they experience a significant positive influx of horses that actually race there.
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Moon
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 01:28:50 PM »

Man, you can't believe the huge fields that are coming up at Arlington Park in a month. 14 horses per race, I hear. Stalls are full already. They are thinking about renting Hawthorne's stalls for the summer, since HAW won't be using them.

maroon
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Edwarren
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 02:47:18 PM »

last week the mighty NYRA raced exactly the same average number of horses per race as did HAW.
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big wally
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 04:55:26 PM »


OTOH, the simulcast facility upgrades for this year are really good, and I notice a lot more people there than I did any time last year, so maybe they're making it all up on simulcasts.

I did notice the crowds bigger this spring than the fall but that is always the case.. the weather has been very good here with the exception of this and opening weekend.. with on-track down double digits I have a hard time believing simo betting is up because betting across the country is down too... To put these March dates in perspective the short fields have been around a while and the ITHA and Hawthorne have refused to change with the times the IRB may force them to reduce to dates...
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Edwarren
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 06:03:07 PM »

Haven't kept up with that, stopped reading the papers for awhile.  Will NYRA reduce the dates at AQU too?
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fnlfurlong
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 08:40:23 PM »

last week the mighty NYRA raced exactly the same average number of horses per race as did HAW.

Believe it or not, I think Illinois usually has similar field sizes to NY... Aqueduct and Belmont don't exactly fill the starting gates....
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 10:49:23 PM »

One thing I do know, the forum has been complaining about the Hawthorne Spring meet field sizes for a couple of years now, but this is the first year even I am having a problem with them. Look, like Joe B., it's pretty disheartening to look at a set of pp's and see only 8 races in total, and the first five of them are 6 horse fields, followed by a 7, leaving a grand total of two decent betting races all day. It's pretty hard to get excited about driving all the way down to Hawthorne for that. It's the same way I used to feel looking at Arlington pp's when they had all those crappy fields running 5 days in May.

This isn't just the track's problem, it's the Illinois horsemen's problem, too. This (and Fall) is their meet, their chance to make some dough before the national stables come to town and gobble up the Arlington purses. Maybe they like short fields so everyone gets a purse, but if no one is betting your races, you have a serious problem you need to address, because you're going to end up losing that meet, and ultimately, several live racing months. If Hawthorne goes out of business, you will not see Arlington running in March or April, or late November and later. Dick will just collect simulcast money all those months to make bigger purses for the out of state stables in the summer, and the little guy year 'round Illinois stable can just go pound sand at Turfway or somewhere for five months.   
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NYRA 792
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 11:22:07 PM »

In the first race Monday you have uncoupled entries from Rivelli and Gorham in a 6 horse field. That's bad.
4th race uncoupled entries again from 2 different trainers in a 6 horse field.
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big wally
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 05:56:15 AM »

 
last week the mighty NYRA raced exactly the same average number of horses per race as did HAW.

Upcoming Haw betting entries before scratches

Mon 59 Horses
Thur 59
Fri    64

 Upcoming AQU entries before scratches and couplings

Wed 69
Thur 67
FRI  70

Let the counting begin
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Edwarren
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 06:16:22 AM »

Fine, but that's not much help.  Will NYRA be cutting dates at AQU?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 06:30:40 AM by Edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 07:10:00 AM »

Fine, but that's not much help.  Will NYRA be cutting dates at AQU?
0

Call them up and let us know.

718-641-4700

http://www.nyra.com//

Here is a link for jobs if you are interested. Look at the NYRA Industry Title Casino and Gaming no mention of Horse Racing go figure.

http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/careers-561300-hresources_nyrainc_com_56859
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:14:56 AM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
Edwarren
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 02:14:55 PM »

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Call them up and let us know.

They said, "No its not even an option."  No talk about cutting dates.
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General Powell
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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »

Having nothing else to do on a Monday, I went to the US Supreme Court website--  Appears a decision on the casino fee contribution will be announced in June, Saw quite a few briefs being filed by interested parties, none of whom appear to be from Horse Racing Interests.

If the 3% ever hits and is used right, it will help those field sizes and interest in racing from the Horseman's perspective. Maybe that will stop these unheard of sub Million handle days.
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APCD Dan
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »

Having nothing else to do on a Monday, I went to the US Supreme Court website--  Appears a decision on the casino fee contribution will be announced in June, Saw quite a few briefs being filed by interested parties, none of whom appear to be from Horse Racing Interests.

If the 3% ever hits and is used right, it will help those field sizes and interest in racing from the Horseman's perspective. Maybe that will stop these unheard of sub Million handle days.

General, I have learned from Terry that there is a secret third handle that we do not know about and that funds everything.  So don't sweat the sub Million handle days.
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General Powell
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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 06:01:21 PM »

Well I will say this, I was at Hawthorne Sunday playing their card, as was Mrs Powell. There was a decent crowd on the 1st floor, but it was immediately obvious that they did not want anything to do with the live race card. In fact, a blind person would not have known anything was going on on the track except for Galassi's call.

So the real question does become two questions-- What is the handle on out of state races, and what percentage goes to the track, purse fund, breeding fund etc.

If in fact no one really cares about on track action (both Live and Simo) then does the out of state simulcast revenue bet here in Illinois act somewhat like slots do in some other locations-- ie--supporting a product that there is no demand for??

BTW-- We had a great time at the track--didn't win much but had fun, even with 5 horse fields

BTW again- Illinois Derby will be on NBC which was a late decision-- Wonder if that came along with Bravo's pick up of the Ky Oaks?  NTRA has really been cutting back and Hawthorne is not NTRA member--Hope they get a large and loud crowd.

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fnlfurlong
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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 07:02:39 PM »

General, I have learned from Terry that there is a secret third handle that we do not know about and that funds everything.  So don't sweat the sub Million handle days.

Looked up in the 08 IRB Annual Report and Hawthorne had $20.6 Million in "On-Track" simulcast revenue during their live meets. Figure a rate of 3.5% for and that is about $721,000 to their bottom line. For live handle they had $13.3 million on track, and at a rate of about 9% that's $1.2 million to the bottom line. So in terms of when Hawthorne is live racing wagering within their venue was more profitable on their product than on simulcast. Now ofcourse this does not include the export of their signal, nor any of the dark time revenue.

For the record, they averages $120,596 in daily live handle in 08.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2009, 07:34:24 PM »

If the 3% ever hits and is used right, it will help those field sizes and interest in racing from the Horseman's perspective. Maybe that will stop these unheard of sub Million handle days.

If the Supreme Court declines to hear the case and the first $90 million or so is cleared, there will probably be another lawsuit to hold it up, as there are apparently still a number of horsemen insisting on looking to the past, and demanding the money be applied to purses retroactively. Probably a plot with Arlington behind it.  Wink 
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 07:34:58 PM »

General, I have learned from Terry that there is a secret third handle that we do not know about and that funds everything.  So don't sweat the sub Million handle days.

You still don't have a clue, do you.
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Stat Man Steve
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« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 07:37:50 PM »

In the first race Monday you have uncoupled entries from Rivelli and Gorham in a 6 horse field. That's bad.
4th race uncoupled entries again from 2 different trainers in a 6 horse field.

In some cases, the 2nd horse might be entered just to fill up the race so it will go for the one that is better intended.  The other one may scratch, or get some exercise.  Plus there might be some favor-trading with the racing secretary - you help me fill races, I'll see if I can put together a race that will suit your horse - and try to drum up enough competition to make that race go as well. 
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 07:41:33 PM »

So the real question does become two questions-- What is the handle on out of state races, and what percentage goes to the track, purse fund, breeding fund etc.

It's no great secret. Anyone can read the racing law, visit the IRB's website and see these numbers for past years, or look at past and present ITHA purse reports to see more current numbers. Various figures about all this have been posted on this forum ever since Janine first started it.

Quote
If in fact no one really cares about on track action (both Live and Simo) then does the out of state simulcast revenue bet here in Illinois act somewhat like slots do in some other locations-- ie--supporting a product that there is no demand for??

That's basically the truth, with the small difference that it's actually horse racing, and there's really no part of it that's a tax gift to racing. Simulcasting supports many of the racing programs in the U.S., as horseplayers everywhere are uniformly convinced the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
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NYRA 792
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 07:57:59 PM »

In some cases, the 2nd horse might be entered just to fill up the race so it will go for the one that is better intended.  The other one may scratch, or get some exercise.  Plus there might be some favor-trading with the racing secretary - you help me fill races, I'll see if I can put together a race that will suit your horse - and try to drum up enough competition to make that race go as well. 

It looks bad from a public perception perspective. Racing already has a shady enough reputation as it is.
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Scav
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 09:11:12 AM »

If the Supreme Court declines to hear the case and the first $90 million or so is cleared, there will probably be another lawsuit to hold it up, as there are apparently still a number of horsemen insisting on looking to the past, and demanding the money be applied to purses retroactively. Probably a plot with Arlington behind it.  Wink 

Why would Arlington want to retro the purses? That is completely 100% opposite of what they want.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 09:17:00 AM »

Why would Arlington want to retro the purses? That is completely 100% opposite of what they want.

No no, they probably just want to delay the payment even more, to hurt Hawthorne or put it out of business.  Cheesy
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