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Author Topic: Curlin faithful are pretty quiet  (Read 3675 times)
Horse Voice
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« on: August 31, 2008, 10:35:55 AM »

That was pretty unimpressive yesterday -- all out to beat a field of tomato cans, and a 14 second final furlong?

This is the "Super Horse" that Big Brown can't get a sniff of?

LOL. Sniff this.
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The Commander
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 12:19:46 PM »

Does anyone think Commentator can wire the Classic if he runs?
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mel4600
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 01:09:47 PM »

That was pretty unimpressive yesterday -- all out to beat a field of tomato cans, and a 14 second final furlong?

This is the "Super Horse" that Big Brown can't get a sniff of?

LOL. Sniff this.

They call Saratoga the graveyard of the favorites and the fact is, no one needs to apologize for a win. Big brown should have run there and then only can you toot that horn. Having said that, I like both horses.
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 01:37:36 PM »

That was pretty unimpressive yesterday -- all out to beat a field of tomato cans, and a 14 second final furlong?

This is the "Super Horse" that Big Brown can't get a sniff of?

LOL. Sniff this.


I will wait and see how the figs come out afterwards for the race before commenting.It looked like he was winding down after having the race secured.He had tough trip 4-5-6 wide thru fast fractions.I believe both camps are dodging each other.I also find it hard to believe BB did not run in he Travers with all the connections being fron NY.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2008, 01:46:27 PM »

Big brown should have run there and then only can you toot that horn.

I don't see the rationale for that, Mel, when the Curlin faithful here dissed Big Brown's effort in Haskell for "barely beating" a nothing horse -- which is exactly what Curlin did yesterday.

And, "Big Brown should have run there", why? Curlin didn't wheel right back and run in the Travers or the Woodward after he ran in the Haskell last year -- he skipped 'em both.

(This is another problem I have with the Curlin backers here -- they want Big Brown to jump through far more hoops in his 3 year old campaign than Curlin did in his. Why? How is that fair, to either horse?)

You have acknowledged that you like both horses in the past, and have done so again in this thread. I like 'em both, too -- I really do.

The part about Big Brown being "nowhere in the same class as Curlin", though -- with that, I have a big problem. If the Curlin backers would examine the numbers and the compare the performances, with no preconceived notions about who is better, they would find that Curlin and BB are just not that far apart.

And I've got more bad news for the Curlin backers -- several Eclipse award voters are already on record as saying Big Brown has a slight edge for Horse of the Year right now; IMO, if Big Brown wins the Classic, he's a mortal lock for HOY.

Curlin had better get his ass out to California for the BC.
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mel4600
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 02:07:40 PM »

You have acknowledged that you like both horses in the past, and have done so again in this thread. I like 'em both, too -- I really do.

The part about Big Brown being "nowhere in the same class as Curlin", though -- with that, I have a big problem. If the Curlin backers would examine the numbers and the compare the performances, with no preconceived notions about who is better, they would find that Curlin and BB are just not that far apart.


While I don't think Big Brown is yet to Curlins level I definitely feel he is very close and I have never stated that there was a huge class difference. I think next to Curlin it is definitely Big Brown and I for one would love to see that race and let it speak for itself.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 02:41:21 PM »

While I don't think Big Brown is yet to Curlins level I definitely feel he is very close and I have never stated that there was a huge class difference.

You have been very consistent and clear in your comments about these two horses, Mel. Although you like Curlin, I am not lumping you in with the "Curlin backers" I am referencing. I should have been more clear about this.

I think next to Curlin it is definitely Big Brown and I for one would love to see that race and let it speak for itself.

Amen.

(Hey, Mel -- mark this date on the calendar: on August 31, 2008, we agreed on something.  Shocked  )
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mottoman
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 03:17:06 PM »

I guess nobody knows the reasons why but both horses do not appear to be nearly as sharp as they were in the springtime! 
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glahn
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 05:01:04 PM »

IMO, if Big Brown wins the Classic, he's a mortal lock for HOY.

Problem is, he won't win the Classic. I wish I could get a foreign bank account set up so I could lay this horse right now on the european betting exchanges.
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glahn
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 05:01:52 PM »

I guess nobody knows the reasons why but both horses do not appear to be nearly as sharp as they were in the springtime! 

That is true. I blame it on lack of steroids, hahaha.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 05:07:53 PM »

Problem is, he won't win the Classic.

Really? No shot at all, huh?

On what are you basing this declarative -- the known Classic opponents of Big Brown, or your in-depth knowledge of how horses are taking to the brand new racing surface at Santa Anita?

Please -- when did you turn into silly?

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glahn
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2008, 07:21:52 PM »

He's got a shot, but not a very good one. I'm basing this off my knowledge of Big Brown's merits and the probable competition.

If you want to make a wager, I'll give you 5-1 right now. If he doesn't start, I win the bet. If he starts and loses, I win the bet. If he dead heats for the win, I'll give you 5-2 instead. Interested?

P.S. Tomorrow there's 8 grass races at AP. I know you hate the poly, so if you were to ever to get to AP this year I would think tomorrow would be the best day.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2008, 08:57:08 PM »

He's got a shot, but not a very good one. I'm basing this off my knowledge of Big Brown's merits and the probable competition.

If you want to make a wager, I'll give you 5-1 right now. If he doesn't start, I win the bet. If he starts and loses, I win the bet. If he dead heats for the win, I'll give you 5-2 instead. Interested?

No. Pretty sporting of you, but not necessary -- I'll get 5-1 on BC day, without the risk of making a "futures bet", which I hate anyway. Besides, I wouldn't bet on being alive in 8 weeks at only 5-1.

P.S. Tomorrow there's 8 grass races at AP. I know you hate the poly, so if you were to ever to get to AP this year I would think tomorrow would be the best day.

I'm all over it, but my chances of going to AP tomorrow are 0.00%. I'm picking up yet another $200 rebate tomorrow at Hawthorne, and even if I weren't boycotting AP, I couldn't imagine playing somewhere that rebates at a rate of only 40% of what Hawthorne does.
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glahn
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2008, 10:00:32 PM »

No. Pretty sporting of you, but not necessary -- I'll get 5-1 on BC day, without the risk of making a "futures bet", which I hate anyway. Besides, I wouldn't bet on being alive in 8 weeks at only 5-1.

I'm all over it, but my chances of going to AP tomorrow are 0.00%. I'm picking up yet another $200 rebate tomorrow at Hawthorne, and even if I weren't boycotting AP, I couldn't imagine playing somewhere that rebates at a rate of only 40% of what Hawthorne does.

You think he'll be 5-1 on BC day? Hm. I would think 3-1 is more likely, but I may be wrong. The antepost betting shops in Europe have him anywhere from 4-1 to 6.4-1.

Re: rebates: why don't you find an off-shore online/telephone rebate shop to bet through? You can probably find someone who gives 400% of what Haw does.
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Gb
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »

If they meet in the Classic, Curlin will beat Big Brown. Neither horse was impressive in their last race, but Curlin still looked better than BB
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 11:41:14 PM »

I hope the BC Classic has both BB and Curlin - and they dead heat for the win in the first time in BC Classic History.
They are both great horses in their own right, and all of you negative azzholes aren't "real" horse people - but really are horses azzes. (Yes, that includes you HorseVoice..)
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 01:33:13 AM »

...all of you negative azzholes aren't "real" horse people - but really are horses azzes. (Yes, that includes you HorseVoice..)

Yeah, I'm a real ***hole -- all I've done here for the last two months is defend Big Brown from the many biased critics here. Big negative ***hole me.

Of course you are better than all of us, Beau, being a breeder and a "real" horse person an all. It must frost your real horse person ass that you need us scumbag bettors to keep you in business, eh?

And who rips into Hawthorne whenever he feels the need (or has had a snoutful to drink, perhaps)? Better check yourself on that negativity stuff.
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 10:11:24 AM »

And who rips into Hawthorne whenever he feels the need (or has had a snoutful to drink, perhaps)? Better check yourself on that negativity stuff.>>>>

Hey, I am the one who does that.  Keep your enemies straight!
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »

And who rips into Hawthorne whenever he feels the need (or has had a snoutful to drink, perhaps)? Better check yourself on that negativity stuff.>>>>

Hey, I am the one who does that.  Keep your enemies straight!

I don't think of anyone here as an enemy. Forum sparring partners, perhaps. Anyone taking this stuff too seriously is likely to be causing themselves organ damage.

Beau has been extremely critical of Hawthorne on the operational and plant changes they've made over the past few years. Feels like there's some sort of hidden agenda there, but I haven't put the pieces together yet.

That's OK, though -- vent all you want. You. Me. Beau. Anybody. About anything, whether it's horseracing related or not, it seems. It's not my board.

But if anyone is going to call me a negative ***hole, their own house better be in order, or they are going to get called on it.

I can only think of a few posters who always keep things positive here, and Beau sure ain't one of them.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2008, 11:32:13 AM »

I don't think of anyone here as an enemy. Forum sparring partners, perhaps. Anyone taking this stuff too seriously is likely to be causing themselves organ damage.

Beau has been extremely critical of Hawthorne on the operational and plant changes they've made over the past few years. Feels like there's some sort of hidden agenda there, but I haven't put the pieces together yet.

That's OK, though -- vent all you want. You. Me. Beau. Anybody. About anything, whether it's horseracing related or not, it seems. It's not my board.

But if anyone is going to call me a negative ***hole, their own house better be in order, or they are going to get called on it.

I can only think of a few posters who always keep things positive here, and Beau sure ain't one of them.

Your house is in order?? HUH?
You are also not always positive on this board. Kinda like calling the kettle black -eh?
You are far more negative about Arlington and RLD than I am of Hawthorne.
I still like Hawthorne and beleive that Illinois needs Hawthorne in the racing picture in a big way, but over the last few years they have done a lot of things that have hurt their product. I'm not making this stuff up due to a secret vendetta - it's all factual.
As far as having a "snootfull" prior to posting - I was sober last night when I posted and am now too. I was actually trying to be funny, but you got your *** in a bind as usual whenever I post. You're just another pathetic stalker that you accuse so many others of being towards you.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2008, 11:40:31 AM »

Your house is in order?? HUH?
You are also not always positive on this board. Kinda like calling the kettle black -eh?

Um...no, because I didn't call anyone a negative ***hole. I was defending myself from such a call. Big difference.

I was actually trying to be funny.

Nice try, but you're full of shit.

(If I say I'm actually trying to be funny when I say that -- do I get a free pass?)
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2008, 07:54:33 PM »

Um...no, because I didn't call anyone a negative ***hole. I was defending myself from such a call. Big difference.

Nice try, but you're full of shit.

(If I say I'm actually trying to be funny when I say that -- do I get a free pass?)

I would NEVER shit you Horsey...yer my favorite turd!
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sawd off
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 08:53:08 AM »

That was pretty unimpressive yesterday -- all out to beat a field of tomato cans, and a 14 second final furlong?

This is the "Super Horse" that Big Brown can't get a sniff of?

LOL. Sniff this.
Great Champions find ways to win whether it's by nose or a length. He is still the one to beat. BBrown is good but he is not a Champion Like CURLIN. Curlin is going to the GOLD CUP. Would like to see Big Brown face him there, but I believe he is opting to run on the Turf.
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 09:05:41 AM »

Great Champions find ways to win whether it's by nose or a length. He is still the one to beat. BBrown is good but he is not a Champion Like CURLIN. Curlin is going to the GOLD CUP. Would like to see Big Brown face him there, but I believe he is opting to run on the Turf.

BB is definitely gong to be the 3YO champ and depending on what happens thru the Classic may end up as HOY.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 09:15:04 AM »

Great Champions find ways to win whether it's by nose or a length.

Big Brown found a way to win the Haskell, and was criticized for "barely" winning. Curlin barely won the Woodward, and is a "Great Champion". Both faced nothing in their respective races, but they both had to dig down deep to get up for the win. You don't see the double standard at work here? 

[Curlin] is still the one to beat.

Agreed. But even the owner now realizes that they might have to beat Big Brown to be named HOY -- they are reportedly now considering running in the BC Classic. I'm not surprised at all -- the Japan Dirt Cup is a really lame choice for Curlin's last race, and everybody knows it.

BBrown is good but he is not a Champion Like CURLIN

Nonsense. Big Brown is a lock for 3 year old Champion. You can't fault Big Brown for not yet accomplishing as much as Curlin -- he's only a 3 year old. Curlin is 4. Frankly, I'm tired of this kind of trick-bag argument. Big Brown has accomplished far more as a 3 year old than Curlin did. Try to spin that in Curlin's favor.
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 10:05:31 AM »

Big Brown has accomplished far more as a 3 year old than Curlin did.

Including finishing eased in the Belmont. Even though it involved one of the worst rides in the history of the sport, Curlin certainly had no blots like that on his record!

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Horse Voice
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 10:23:36 AM »

Including finishing eased in the Belmont. Even though it involved one of the worst rides in the history of the sport, Curlin certainly had no blots like that on his record!

If "a win is a win", then doesn't it follow that "a loss is a loss"?

Who cares if Curlin lost the Belmont by a nose, or if Big Brown was eased in the Belmont? Bottom line: they both lost the Belmont.

Only one of them lost their shot at the Triple Crown there, though. The other one never really had a shot at it.

And only one of them got this far in their careers with only 1 lifetime loss.

Big Brown bashers can continue to look at the "hole"; I'll continue to see the entire doughnut.
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mel4600
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2008, 12:45:19 PM »

Your house is in order?? HUH?
You are also not always positive on this board. Kinda like calling the kettle black -eh?
You are far more negative about Arlington and RLD than I am of Hawthorne.
I still like Hawthorne and beleive that Illinois needs Hawthorne in the racing picture in a big way, but over the last few years they have done a lot of things that have hurt their product. I'm not making this stuff up due to a secret vendetta - it's all factual.
As far as having a "snootfull" prior to posting - I was sober last night when I posted and am now too. I was actually trying to be funny, but you got your *** in a bind as usual whenever I post. You're just another pathetic stalker that you accuse so many others of being towards you.

Beau,

Don't bother with him, you got to much class! I'll do the dirty work. Horse Voice is the first jackass I met who claimed to know everything about horses.  beer
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glahn
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2008, 02:25:59 PM »

Nonsense. Big Brown is a lock for 3 year old Champion.

If Colonel John wins the Classic, I don't think Big Brown is a "lock."
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2008, 03:11:13 PM »

Horse Voice is the first jackass I met who claimed to know everything about horses.  beer

You're in a trolling mood today, aren't you Mel? You usually come running to defend Steve -- is Beau your son, too? I doubt it -- Beau seems to be able to take care of himself.

Show me where I made a claim that I know everything about horses, and I'll change my profile to say "jackass" under my forum name; if you can't do that, you change your profile to say "jackass" under your forum name. Deal?

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Horse Voice
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2008, 03:37:04 PM »

If Colonel John wins the Classic, I don't think Big Brown is a "lock."

Assuming no other starts, if CJ wins the Classic, he would have:

10 starts: 6 wins (3 Grade I's), 2 seconds and 1 third...and $5 million in earnings

to Big Brown's *current* record:

7 starts: 6 wins (4 Grade I's), and $3.3 million in earnings

So, in the minds of the Eclipse voters, SA Derby win + Travers win + BC Classic win would have to be greater than Fla. Derby win + Ky. Derby win + Preakness win + Haskell win.

I don't think it's enough -- especially if Curlin doesn't run in the Classic per current plan.

(Now, if Big Brown and Curlin run in the Classic, and Colonel John still wins? Hmm...very interesting! Those Eclipse voters are going to actually going to have to think about their votes.)
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mel4600
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2008, 04:01:56 PM »

You're in a trolling mood today, aren't you Mel? You usually come running to defend Steve -- is Beau your son, too? I doubt it -- Beau seems to be able to take care of himself.


Kind of like you going on the harness side defending Moon, Knowitall, and Clockerterry (your alter ego).  Wink
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glahn
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2008, 04:13:12 PM »

Assuming no other starts, if CJ wins the Classic, he would have:

10 starts: 6 wins (3 Grade I's), 2 seconds and 1 third...and $5 million in earnings

to Big Brown's *current* record:

7 starts: 6 wins (4 Grade I's), and $3.3 million in earnings

So, in the minds of the Eclipse voters, SA Derby win + Travers win + BC Classic win would have to be greater than Fla. Derby win + Ky. Derby win + Preakness win + Haskell win.

I don't think it's enough -- especially if Curlin doesn't run in the Classic per current plan.

(Now, if Big Brown and Curlin run in the Classic, and Colonel John still wins? Hmm...very interesting! Those Eclipse voters are going to actually going to have to think about their votes.)

Big Brown made 7 starts this year? Colonel John made 10 starts this year?! Throwback to the old days when horses actually ran.

P.S. Mel, who is "Knowitall?"
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2008, 04:25:29 PM »

Kind of like you going on the harness side defending Moon, Knowitall, and Clockerterry (your alter ego).  Wink

No, not like that at all. I wasn't there to defend anybody. I was adding my own content. I even suggested that the whole thing with Sarah Palin's daughter be dropped. Do you read for comprehension, or do you just open a window and start posting dreck?
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mel4600
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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2008, 04:29:02 PM »

Big Brown made 7 starts this year? Colonel John made 10 starts this year?! Throwback to the old days when horses actually ran.

P.S. Mel, who is "Knowitall?"

He is a guy named Swoodall who posts on the harness side. I have to admit, you have been to the point and posting horse info and plays (usually good) along with solid reasoning and my opinion of you has changed drastically to the plus side.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2008, 04:30:52 PM »

Big Brown made 7 starts this year? Colonel John made 10 starts this year?! Throwback to the old days when horses actually ran.

I didn't say that. I posted their lifetime records for comparison, because that's all I have at the moment.

In any case, it's a minor issue: post their 3 year old stats only, and CJ might look marginally better than his lifetime box -- but still not better than Big Brown.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2008, 04:32:18 PM »

I have to admit, you have been to the point and posting horse info and plays (usually good) along with solid reasoning and my opinion of you has changed drastically to the plus side.

Hey, "Mel, the Shit-Stirrer" thinks you're just swell.

That, and a quarter...
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glahn
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2008, 04:37:43 PM »

I didn't say that. I posted their lifetime records for comparison, because that's all I have at the moment.

In any case, it's a minor issue: post their 3 year old stats only, and CJ might look marginally better than his lifetime box -- but still not better than Big Brown.

2yo season plays no part in determining 3yo honors. You're right, he doesn't look better than Big Brown. But if he wins the Classic I think it's a close call. That said, I don't think he'll win the Classic. But then again, I couldn't understand why he was 4-1 and not 12-1 in the Travers.
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mel4600
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2008, 04:50:47 PM »

No, not like that at all. I wasn't there to defend anybody. I was adding my own content. I even suggested that the whole thing with Sarah Palin's daughter be dropped. Do you read for comprehension, or do you just open a window and start posting dreck?

Is that so? You are a piece of work! Go read your posts again #3394 & #3405 and sell your shit to whoever is buying.  Wink
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mel4600
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2008, 04:54:40 PM »

Hey, "Mel, the Shit-Stirrer" thinks you're just swell.

That, and a quarter...

You can say what you want, Glahn has stuck to racing and provided good insight and winners. You on the other hand have been arguing with everyone including him. Go have a stiff drink and unwind.  beer
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2008, 09:03:52 PM »

Is that so? You are a piece of work! Go read your posts again #3394 & #3405 and sell your shit to whoever is buying.  Wink

After a lengthly dig, I found those posts -- jeez, Mel, you must have a lot of time on your hands to go back that many pages into that thread.

It appears that I was right about your comprehension problem, Mel -- in both of those posts, I was responding to Steve. I wasn't defending any other poster.

It seems that the indices to your cross-references database of forum poster insults, slights, errors, lies, ad hominem attacks, and third-party assaults is corrupted, and needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Here's a performance tip -- delete all of the entries for your and Steve's posts first, and you ought to pick up about a 9000% improvement in processing speed and disk usage after the rebuild.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2008, 09:25:43 PM »

 thumbs down

It was a good thread for awhile.
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mel4600
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2008, 07:18:35 AM »


It appears that I was right about your comprehension problem, Mel -- in both of those posts, I was responding to Steve. I wasn't defending any other poster.


LoL, If you say so. Now go back and talk to your alter ego, I find it very amusing!  Wink
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2008, 08:02:25 AM »

LoL, If you say so. Now go back and talk to your alter ego, I find it very amusing!  Wink

Apology accepted. It was an honest mistake on your part. I suppose it can be very difficult to keep things straight, with all of the stirring you do -- and now, so prominently on both sides of the forum. When do you sleep? 
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sawd off
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« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2008, 08:59:55 AM »

Big Brown found a way to win the Haskell, and was criticized for "barely" winning. Curlin barely won the Woodward, and is a "Great Champion". Both faced nothing in their respective races, but they both had to dig down deep to get up for the win. You don't see the double standard at work here? 

Agreed. But even the owner now realizes that they might have to beat Big Brown to be named HOY -- they are reportedly now considering running in the BC Classic. I'm not surprised at all -- the Japan Dirt Cup is a really lame choice for Curlin's last race, and everybody knows it.

Nonsense. Big Brown is a lock for 3 year old Champion. You can't fault Big Brown for not yet accomplishing as much as Curlin -- he's only a 3 year old. Curlin is 4. Frankly, I'm tired of this kind of trick-bag argument. Big Brown has accomplished far more as a 3 year old than Curlin did. Try to spin that in Curlin's favor.
Look the 3 yearold division is the weakest in years. He has beat nothing when he has won. Yes, he is the best 3yearold out there. He is no champion until he beats the reigning TRUE CHAMPION in CURLIN. Lets see how he does against older horses. If you want to call BB a champion 3 yearold go ahead. He is no World Champ until he beats CURLIN. Yes, let DICK big mouth Dutrow fill him with the ROIDS. Anyone is a fool to believe that he is not. CULIN has ran against the best and beat the best with a very solid Resume against some of the top older horses in the WORLD. Not against some average threeyearolds. Hopefully they will hook up in the Classic. It's obvious DICKY and BB don't want to go back to Belmont where he was EASED against a bunch of average threeyearolds. These are the facts!
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big wally
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« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2008, 09:31:55 AM »

With Curlin choosing the Jockey Gold Cup the Curlin Team will not send him to the Classic, too bad the classic will be run on the fake stuff we will never find out who is the better dirt horse...

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Horse Voice
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« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2008, 10:46:14 AM »

Yes, let DICK big mouth Dutrow fill him with the ROIDS. Anyone is a fool to believe that he is not.

Big Brown has been off steroids for 2-3 months now.
 
California has been posting full-page ads in the DRF outlining their ban on steroids and the impact on horses wishing to run in the Breeders Cup. (Only small traces of 4 steroids are allowed, and all others are banned outright.

Anyone that thinks Dutrow is loading Big Brown up with steroids just to run him in the BC and get busted is the fool.   

CULIN has ran against the best and beat the best with a very solid Resume against some of the top older horses in the WORLD.

Name some that he faced this year. Name ONE. "Top" older horses, you said -- not the tomato cans he faced in the Woodward.

(Admit it, you had to go back and look to see who he beat, didn't you?)

These are the facts!

As usual when someone here is ripping on Big Brown, 1 part fact mixed in with 3 parts opinion, 2 parts jive, and 1 part "I hate Dutrow". And also as usual, pretty weak sauce when someone feels compelled to end their post with the emphatic "These are the facts!" line.
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« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2008, 11:16:47 AM »

Name some that he faced this year. Name ONE. "Top" older horses, you said -- not the tomato cans he faced in the Woodward.

I know this is last year, but he beat Lawyer Ron who turned into a monster for a few races. This year he beat Well Armed, who ran a good second in the Pacific Classic. He beat a former Breeder's Cup winner in Better Talk Now. He beat Asiatic Boy, who admittedly through in a clunker that day, but is a good horse otherwise. He ran that Dubai race in what was a good final time compared to the final times of the other dirt races that day. I wouldn't exactly call Wanderin' Boy a tomato can--he can be very good when on his game. He beat Einstein (admittedly, wrong surface for him) when he was performing better than he ever has in his life. He beat Brass Hat, who has won and placed in several grade 1s.

I'd bet Proud Spell over Big Brown in a 1 1/8th race on real dirt with a full field.
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« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2008, 11:49:07 AM »

It can also be asked, who is the best horse Big Brown has beaten? Hard to make a case when presented this way. Having said that,  making these kinds of comparisons will not convince anybody who is better. Time will tell.
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« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2008, 11:52:26 AM »

I know this is last year, but he beat Lawyer Ron who turned into a monster for a few races. This year he beat Well Armed, who ran a good second in the Pacific Classic. He beat a former Breeder's Cup winner in Better Talk Now. He beat Asiatic Boy, who admittedly through in a clunker that day, but is a good horse otherwise. He ran that Dubai race in what was a good final time compared to the final times of the other dirt races that day. I wouldn't exactly call Wanderin' Boy a tomato can--he can be very good when on his game. He beat Einstein (admittedly, wrong surface for him) when he was performing better than he ever has in his life. He beat Brass Hat, who has won and placed in several grade 1s.

I'd bet Proud Spell over Big Brown in a 1 1/8th race on real dirt with a full field.

I knew YOU knew all of that stuff, glahn -- I wanted "sawd off" to come up with something other than rhetoric.

Not real impressive beating Brass Hat and Better Talk Now these days, BTW, since many other horses not of Curlin's caliber have also beaten these two.

It's really a trick question, because what I'll never get any of the Curlin backers to admit is that there aren't very many good horses in the older handicap division for dirt horses. The current situation reminds me of a few years ago, when Mineshaft started winning everything...I thought he was a real nice horse, but no world-beater.
 
Now, Proud Spell vs. Big Brown -- that would be a horse race. Wouldn't be surprised to see her beat all the males -- Curlin too -- if she raced them.
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2008, 11:55:10 AM »

It can also be asked, who is the best horse Big Brown has beaten? Hard to make a case when presented this way. Having said that,  making these kinds of comparisons will not convince anybody who is better. Time will tell.

It would have to be Eight Belles, and she was on par with Proud Spell and Pure Clan.
 
You are right, Mel -- time will tell.
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2008, 11:58:57 AM »

It's really a trick question, because what I'll never get any of the Curlin backers to admit is that there aren't very many good horses in the older handicap division for dirt horses. The current situation reminds me of a few years ago, when Mineshaft started winning everything...I thought he was a real nice horse, but no world-beater.
 
Now, Proud Spell vs. Big Brown -- that would be a horse race. Wouldn't be surprised to see her beat all the males -- Curlin too -- if she raced them.

I think Curlin is the best dirt horse in training right now. I also think the older handicap division is fairly weak compared to years previous (when Ghostzapper was around, or Invasor), so I admit he's not as good as he appears to be.

From the beginning I thought this year's 3yo filly crop was better than the colts.

P.S. I used Backseat Rhythm and Satan's Circus in my pick 4 (I had the entry on there if the 2,5 or 6 had won the opening race) and am now dealing with a jockey's objection. It looks like moderate interference at most, no worse than Coa coming out and exchanging bumps than the 6 in the first leg. If I get through this I've got some slim pickins: 5,7 / 5,7 in the last 2 legs.
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2008, 12:03:47 PM »

P.S. I used Backseat Rhythm and Satan's Circus in my pick 4 (I had the entry on there if the 2,5 or 6 had won the opening race) and am now dealing with a jockey's objection. It looks like moderate interference at most, no worse than Coa coming out and exchanging bumps than the 6 in the first leg. If I get through this I've got some slim pickins: 5,7 / 5,7 in the last 2 legs.

I'll find out which of the BC races Mr. P and Co. are pointing BR to, and let you know so you can shop for futures. She's every bit the game filly I was touting her to be earlier in the year -- she just needs to stay on the grass.
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2008, 12:14:11 PM »

I'll find out which of the BC races Mr. P and Co. are pointing BR to, and let you know so you can shop for futures. She's every bit the game filly I was touting her to be earlier in the year -- she just needs to stay on the grass.

Yeah she was my co-top choice in the race (along with Satan's Circus). I too had been hoping they'd put her (and keep her) back on grass. Unfortunately I made a win bet on Satan's Circus and not on her. Very dumb. At those odds I could've a) bet them both or b) not 'split hairs' and bet the higher price (nominal as it was, 5-1 vs. 9-2).
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