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Author Topic: Breeders Awards  (Read 991 times)
Claiming King
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« on: February 07, 2006, 02:45:44 PM »

Wouldn't the purse account be bigger if breeders awards didn't come out? Should they be limited? Do Walker and Hunt really deserve to get a check for some crippled eight year old winning a four claimer?
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2006, 03:06:42 PM »

I don't know about Walker, but Hunt needs every dime.

Seriously, I agree.  I think that there should be a cap on breeder awards.  I don't know whether they should cut off as 5 year olds, or some other age...but here is the kicker, and I am really glad that Claiming King posed the question.

How many people out there know that Breeder Awards do not come out of the purse account?  I am guessing not all that many.

Purse accounts are not affected one dime by the amount of money paid in breeder awards.  Breeder awards are a direct expense paid by the track, out of their share of commissions.  They are just like the utility bill, except for the fact that the breeder awards are paid out on a, more or less, quarterly basis.

As a followup question for Claiming King, or anyone else out there.  Do you also know that the breeder awards aren't paid in accordance with the Horse Racing Act of 1975?  At least not in stakes races.

The tracks have applied their own version of modern math, and instead of paying the breeder award based upon the purse money paid to the winner.  The tracks pay a breeder award of 12 1/2% of the winner's share after deducting added money, nominating, sustaining and starting fees.

For example - Loyal Opposition won the $100,000 Ann Vonion on Super Night this year.  Did I get $6,250 - no, I got $1,887.08

Other examples - My Boy David won the 2005 Governor's Cup at DuQuoin, winning an $85,000 race netted a breeder award of $59.00

Super Night 2004 - Undeniably You won the $200,000 Grandma Ann - the breeder award paid was $2,951.69 
Sounds Of Silence won the $250,000 Orange and Blue Filly - the breeder award was paid at $3,375.05

I am not saying that we don't appreciate breeder awards because we do.  But they don't come out of the purse account.  They aren't paid in accordance with the statute and they aren't paid on time.  We are still waiting for the fourth quarter from 2005 now.

If you want to put limits on the awards, I can understand that.  Please though, understand where they come from and how much they are before taking shots at us....thanks.
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Terry Hunt
Claiming King
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2006, 03:15:58 PM »

Well, if the tracks didn't have to pay the awards that is certainly money that could go toward purses. It could be negotiated. The dollars are fungible.

But I'm glad to hear you say you think there should be a cap on them. If you're going to have the awards, it's just plain dumb that there aren't a larger ones for races of greater importance. And I don't think it helps anyone (except maybe you and Doc) that they are paid out on horses older than three or four.

I wasn't taking a shot at you, by the way. Cottonwood has been a leader in improving the breed in Illinois.
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talking head
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2006, 03:23:46 PM »

Hey at least track  mgmt. is not prejudice they screw EVERYBODY!!!
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2006, 03:40:21 PM »

CK,

I am mixing apples and oranges a bit, but I disagree with you on one side and agree (at least partially) with you on the other.

Breeder awards were created by the horse racing act of 1975, and the rate is fixed.  As such they have never become part of any contract negotiations.  To the track they are just like any other expense.  If the track is able to save money in its operating budget, believe me, they don't put that out on the table as extra money available for purses.

Getting back to your example though, for a $4,000 claimer racing for a purse of $3,000 the breeder award paid to the winner is $187.50.  I think I can speak for Doc Walker when I say that neither of us are getting rich on those awards, and if they were somehow re-allocated to reward the younger and/or better class horses, we wouldn't have a problem.  It would require some sort of legislative action to amend, but I think breeders as a group are looking to continually improve and upgrade the quality of the ICF program.

Along those same lines, there is the issue of the bonus money that is paid to an ICF horse racing in open company.  The breeders feel that can be a great incentive program, but it is not currently applied in the best way to encourage ownership of the better ICF horses.  The bonus program was more effective when it was a 20% bonus paid out, but the bonus did not apply to the bottom 2 or 3 claiming classes.

I think it is better to reward the owners of ICF horses that are capable of being competitive at the middle and upper ranges, as opposed to rewarding mediocrity.  I will be the first to admit that not every horse we have bred and sold goes on to be a great, or even good, race horse...I don't know of any farm, in any jurisdiction, that can make such a claim.  Still, our goal is to breed, raise and sell the very best athletes we can and the incentive should be to reward those horses that prove to be competitive in solid open company.

Those horses that turn out to be $4,000 claimers are just that...they are four claimers whether they come from Illinois, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Kentucky or timbucktoo and they don't deserve any extra reward for being ICF.



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Terry Hunt
swoodall
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2006, 01:51:20 AM »

Terry

The last one I bred won the county fair challenge at DuQuion this past year for a purse of 15k and all I got was $56.00.  I can't believe you only got $3 more than I did!!!  Amazing!  The only breeders awards that were any good were the over night open races where they gave an extra bonus amount (20%) of the winners purse share to an Illinois bred when they won.  Shay Lynn Rae made me the most breeders money winning in open claimers/condition races.  Having a horse who can win consistently in overnight races is better than a stakes horse from a breeders standpoint!  Seems odd but true.  The lone exception would be increasing the value of the next yearling out of that mare at next year's sale if you planed on not racing your yearling.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 01:58:43 AM by swoodall » Report to moderator   Logged
Auntie Mae
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 05:54:01 AM »

I am glad to learn that the breeders awards come out of track managements pocket and not the purse account. The amount that goes into the purse account is determined by law and monitored by the IRB isn't it? Track management does not have any control over the amount unless they chose to defer taking out the money for their share of recapture if I understand this correctly. Do I have it right?                My late husband always said that putting too much money in the purses for bottom class horses would drag racing down. I never understood why he thought that because all of his horses raced in the lower classes.                 Mr Hunt, I don't know you but it seems like you, the other breeders, the county fair people and the horsemen who are in Illinois racing for the long haul are the ones the people making laws in Springfield should try to keep in racing.
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 09:27:30 AM »

Auntie Mae,

There are definitely regulations in place that determine the amount of the total handle that goes into the purse account.  The IRB does monitor that activity.

Because recapture hasn't been reimbursed by the state for the past three years, the handling of recapture has become a very sensitive issue for both sides...but the amount of recapture money that is waived and/or deferred definitely impacts the net total purse money available for distribution to the horsemen.

Your late husband was a smart man, and was clearly a "big picture" guy.  Sometimes it is very difficult to acknowledge that what is good and individual - especially when that individual is you -  may not be good for the
industry as a whole.

There are many other people in Illinois who are committed to the long term success of the local program...unfortunately none of us have been able to influence our representatives in Springfield that there are changes that must be made if we are to survive.
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Terry Hunt
Terry Hunt
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2006, 09:35:53 AM »

Swoodall,

If you don't believe me, I can send you the printout from the HGCA  :-)

We have partners on some of our broodmares, and it is always a funny experience (in a semi-sadistic sort of way) when they first experience the thrill of their first breeder award check on a big stakes winner.

You are absolutely correct.  When the 20% ICF bonus was in play, the breeder awards earned by a horse like Constant Change racing in the Open was much better than winning a stakes race.

I believe the IHHA considered re-establishing the conditions for the ICF Bonus to revert to the 20% level, while eliminating the bonus for the lowest claiming classes...but the action was either tabled or defeated.

Hopefully they will re-consider it in the near future.  The concept of rewarding ICF horses for racing in open competition was not intended to be an incentive for mediocrity.

Good luck.
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Terry Hunt
swoodall
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2006, 03:08:16 PM »

Terry

Oh I definitely believe you.  I was just trying to emphasize the pathethic amounts paid to the breeders after they take great risks as the backbone of the racing industry and get very little return for their efforts.  You strike gold and produce a stakes placed 2yold and all you get for your efforts is whatever crumbs are left from the winners share when JJ gets through applying his version of FUZZY MATH.  His Cuban cigars cost more than our breeders award checks!  Without the breeders to shit on,  who would JJ have left to supply the brokendown rats he showcases week after week.  He wants everything for nothing and demands your loyalty for his pittance.
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