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Author Topic: Today's Daily Debate Topic for Saturday Febuary 4th  (Read 2148 times)
Dan Nance
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« on: February 04, 2006, 03:01:34 AM »

Ok people I'm tired of talking about the IRB, the track owners, the IHHA, the slots, the handle, customer service, positive tests by trainers, and illegals on the backside. I want to talk about harness racing old and new.

 I was looking at the programs Friday night and it dawned on me that there just isn't that many New Zealand horses racing in this country like there once was back in the 70's and 80's and most of the 90's. There were some great New Zealand breds that graced our raceways in this country and many of us fell in love with alot of them. One of my all time favorites was " Tricky Dick N ". So, that brings me to todays question.

Many people are saying that harness racing is slowly dieing. Do any of you feel that by not having the influx that we once had of quality racehorses from New Zealand is an indication that harness racing is really starting to die off? Also, why do you think we are not seeing hardly any New Zealand horses coming to this country like we did for so many years? And, do you think the sudden drop off of horses brought here from New Zealand is part of the reason there is a shortage of horses?

     I hope this question sparks some interest and brings back some memories of some of the great New Zealand horses that we all loved to see race. 
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Honest1
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2006, 03:30:04 AM »

Well this could take a while, first I think that at the same time the NZ horses were getting pricey the Illinois bred horses were getting better at a lot cheaper tag. The benefit of the NZ breds was they usually were close to racing when they got here. The shitty purses had a lot to do with it also. Tricky Dick was one of the most honest horses that ever hit a track any where! I really miss the class horses, I used to go find willy when he raced here and give him a starlight mint(he loved them!) I even visited him at the kentucky horse park the year before he died.
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2006, 08:14:06 AM »

in my opinion I think we have plenty of horses, but too many races and not enough care given to the animals....I like the new zeland and austraila bred horses but I think they got kind of expensive to bring here and I see plenty starting here maybe not like before but an ample amount....I just hate seeing horses start twice a week and racing lame and sick....I cold go on but you get the idea.
                                                                trotter
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2006, 09:46:29 AM »

Maybe people finally figured out that 9 out of 10 NZ horses race once and get sick and NEVER return..or maybe they figured out that the good ones are still in NZ...the real shortage of horses goes back to the breeding...you just don't go into the barn and pull out 150 horses when you need them...every year the number of horses bred goes DOWN!!  this affects racing in the following years!!  The shortage now was created a few years back...why?  $$$$$$$$$$ is the answer!
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 09:57:07 AM »

 maroon Of course, Cardigan Bay was the best I actually got to see race live and in person.  I would think the high transportation cost would make it not worthwhile to import less than a first class animal.  I remember when some horsemen made yearly trips to buy NZ stock.  Does anyone do that anymore?
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 11:22:42 AM »

I would contribute part of the decline of NZ breds in America to the increase in administrative laws almost all countries have implemented in recent years.  Hoof-and-mouth, mad cow, etc. has lead to longer quaratine times before and after the shipping process begins.  This leads to higher total shipping cost, and an owner who has to wait a couple extra weeks to see there new horse before they can feed him a  carrot.  I had the liberty of training Time Frame N for a week and a half or so.  I thought it was going to be longer and she was going to grind out cash in the FM open for a year in chitown.  I started her at hoosier, raced huge and was 3rd, 1/4 of a length out of it all.  Two days later the truck was there because of some disagreement between owners, some of which live out east and some from the midwest both wanted to watch her live (at least thats what i was told).  I was puking because she was simply a raw talented grinder with a ton of heart, gave me a new respect for NZ breds.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 11:24:44 AM by RDUKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Terry Hunt
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 11:24:38 AM »

Dan,

Pretty good question for a rookie host :-)

In the 80's there were always at least a couple of connections for NZ bred horses to end up in Chicago.  Bobby Gordon always had some good stock, Bob Ranquist raced a ton of NZ horses here, and Brian Pelling naturally had his down under sources.

I think Tough Business was right on target for many of the NZ horses.  In NZ they started their race careers later than in the US, and as a result there were many 5--6-7 year olds eligible to classes racing against US bred 3 year olds.  Those older horses usually fared pretty well for a few weeks, then the combination of winning out of the non-winners of 3 or 5 put them into tougher classes....and it did seem that they invariably got sick after being here for a short while and ended up on the shelf for a long time.

Personally, my take on the change might be a little different than some others because I look at the change in the NZ breeding program.  15-20 years ago all those horses with the "N" tagged onto their name came from pedigrees that were solidly New Zealand horses.  Now nearly all of the NZ horses are by US sires or sons of US sires, and their broodmare band is taking on a much stronger US influence as well.

I think that changing of philosophy has essentially changed today's NZ bred horse into another US bred horse from a different hemisphere.  I don't think that would necessarily be bad, but if you take the time to analyze the sires that have been exported - they are dominated by stallions that were either marginally successful in the US, older stallions that had fallen out of favor in America, or in many cases studs that were complete flops here.

There are still some outstanding horses that come from NZ, but if you are just looking at the pedigrees the modern NZ horse is not going to have the same pizazz because they are sired by horses that are no longer, or never were, popular in the US.  Just putting the N after their name doesn't mean "new and improved".
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Terry Hunt
Dan Nance
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2006, 11:52:31 AM »

Dan,

Pretty good question for a rookie host :-)

In the 80's there were always at least a couple of connections for NZ bred horses to end up in Chicago.  Bobby Gordon always had some good stock, Bob Ranquist raced a ton of NZ horses here, and Brian Pelling naturally had his down under sources.

I think Tough Business was right on target for many of the NZ horses.  In NZ they started their race careers later than in the US, and as a result there were many 5--6-7 year olds eligible to classes racing against US bred 3 year olds.  Those older horses usually fared pretty well for a few weeks, then the combination of winning out of the non-winners of 3 or 5 put them into tougher classes....and it did seem that they invariably got sick after being here for a short while and ended up on the shelf for a long time.

Personally, my take on the change might be a little different than some others because I look at the change in the NZ breeding program.  15-20 years ago all those horses with the "N" tagged onto their name came from pedigrees that were solidly New Zealand horses.  Now nearly all of the NZ horses are by US sires or sons of US sires, and their broodmare band is taking on a much stronger US influence as well.

I think that changing of philosophy has essentially changed today's NZ bred horse into another US bred horse from a different hemisphere.  I don't think that would necessarily be bad, but if you take the time to analyze the sires that have been exported - they are dominated by stallions that were either marginally successful in the US, older stallions that had fallen out of favor in America, or in many cases studs that were complete flops here.

There are still some outstanding horses that come from NZ, but if you are just looking at the pedigrees the modern NZ horse is not going to have the same pizazz because they are sired by horses that are no longer, or never were, popular in the US.  Just putting the N after their name doesn't mean "new and improved".

Terry

         You must be right about the breeding down under because you just don't see the monster Invitational or FFA NZ horses around anymore.

         I'm not knocking today's trainers but I don't think today's trainers know how to handle and train the NZ horses like some of the conditioners from the past did. Therefore, I think trainers today tell their owners not to buy NZ horses because they don't think they can do any good with them. The days of the Brian Pellings and the A. George Shaws are gone forever. They are just two examples of conditioners from the past who knew how to train those steeds from down under.

    THAT'S " YOUNG QUINN N " in front!!
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2006, 12:26:23 PM »

Dan,

Young Quinn is a perfect example.  He was among the most successful and popular NZ horses ever -  winning over $750,000 in the US.  His pedigree is typical of the sort I mentioned previously - sired by Young Charles out of the Hal Tryax mare Loyal Trick.

What I don't know if this horse was chosen in general, or as a cruel reminder of one of my own NZ breds....and I know you have a sharp memory :-)

No one will confuse Gold And Brown - the full brother to Young Quinn, that I bought and raced in Chicago - with his star brother.  Gold And Brown "amassed" US earnings of just over $66,000....which was slightly more than it cost me in transport and vet bills!!

It reminds me of a saying an old friend used to counsel me when looking at race horses - "just remember Jimmy Carter and Billy Carter are full brothers too".  :-)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 12:29:47 PM by Terry Hunt » Report to moderator   Logged

Terry Hunt
kingofcrete
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2006, 03:20:19 PM »

WHY BILL

YANKEE LAD N

I can also remember when most of the Hollywood Park/ Los Alamitos races had 3-4 imports

How about the nut cases like NIKUI
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sporty
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2006, 03:36:30 PM »

Joe Muscara had been bringing many of the downunder horses to the us also. I remember he would have many of them at Freehold and Cat Manzi usually drove them. Many of the horses are stil around but are shells of themselves. Others have held on pretty well.

Mighty Khan N is an example of a horse that has stuck around. Hasn't been a world beater but still shows signs of his old self.

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Dan Nance
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2006, 03:47:11 PM »

Joe Muscara had been bringing many of the downunder horses to the us also. I remember he would have many of them at Freehold and Cat Manzi usually drove them. Many of the horses are stil around but are shells of themselves. Others have held on pretty well.

Mighty Khan N is an example of a horse that has stuck around. Hasn't been a world beater but still shows signs of his old self.



It seems like the NZ horses that come over these days are just plain racehorses not the monsters they once were. Maybe Terry is right about the breeding these days or maybe trainers these days can't bring the best out of the NZ horses. There were so many monsters years ago that came over but no longer today.

  That's " PACIFIC FLIGHT N " in front!
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2006, 04:15:11 PM »

  It seems a lot of the NZ horses went to trainers in California first. I guess it was the quarantine. Charlie hunter and Brian Meale were big pushing NZ horses here


      Forto prontessa
     Local scott
     Game too
     American kiwi
     Double bill n


    I remember Young Quinnn in the US pacing championship. DID joe marsh drive Huh
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 05:03:36 PM »

  It seems a lot of the NZ horses went to trainers in California first. I guess it was the quarantine. Charlie hunter and Brian Meale were big pushing NZ horses here


      Forto prontessa
     Local scott
     Game too
     American kiwi
     Double bill n


    I remember Young Quinnn in the US pacing championship. DID joe marsh drive Huh

I can't remember who drove Young Quinn.

    That's "MAI MAI N" on the inside" LaVALAISE " on the outside with " INCA GOLD N " closing in the middle of the track!!
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RK
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2006, 05:09:18 PM »

They just had this on article in the USTA newsroom , first start here

http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=13910&z=1

one of my favorite NZ bred was Conundrum N he was a pretty good speed demon when he first came over to the states , although he ended up a cheap claimer he had lots of heart!

RK
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2006, 05:24:05 PM »

They just had this on article in the USTA newsroom , first start here

http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=13910&z=1

one of my favorite NZ bred was Conundrum N he was a pretty good speed demon when he first came over to the states , although he ended up a cheap claimer he had lots of heart!

RK

How about Childewood Hanover N ? Was he one of your favorites?
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2006, 05:44:06 PM »

I can't remember who drove Young Quinn.

    That's "MAI MAI N" on the inside" LaVALAISE " on the outside with " INCA GOLD N " closing in the middle of the track!!


Speaking of California, here's one to watch: EASTON ALLIANCE N.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2006, 05:45:34 PM »

American money got sick of being screwed by the importers! Seems there was a time when the first  N.Z. horse  every owner got was worth the money,then the next few got worse and worse until finally they got stuck with a 30k  2:01 pacer.In my opinion the folks down under cut their own throats!.When you compare the money these animals earn in N.Z. to the amount they were selling for,its insane!Selling a horse that made 3k in a year for 25k,is like selling a horse that earns 30k a year here for 250k!
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2006, 06:50:05 PM »

American money got sick of being screwed by the importers! Seems there was a time when the first  N.Z. horse  every owner got was worth the money,then the next few got worse and worse until finally they got stuck with a 30k  2:01 pacer.In my opinion the folks down under cut their own throats!.When you compare the money these animals earn in N.Z. to the amount they were selling for,its insane!Selling a horse that made 3k in a year for 25k,is like selling a horse that earns 30k a year here for 250k!

It doesn't matter what they could earn in NZ it's matters what the horse can earn in the US. When will people understand that when you price a horse anywhere they should be priced by what their earning potential can be. 
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RK
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2006, 09:04:35 PM »

How about Childewood Hanover N ? Was he one of your favorites?


This horse was around right about the time I started wagering on harness racing
and I dont think he`s the same Childewood KW had. (could be wrong)

RK 
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2006, 09:09:25 PM »

Derry Ray had Childewood.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 11:15:07 PM by Dan Nance » Report to moderator   Logged
RK
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2006, 09:13:26 PM »

American money got sick of being screwed by the importers! Seems there was a time when the first  N.Z. horse  every owner got was worth the money,then the next few got worse and worse until finally they got stuck with a 30k  2:01 pacer.In my opinion the folks down under cut their own throats!.When you compare the money these animals earn in N.Z. to the amount they were selling for,its insane!Selling a horse that made 3k in a year for 25k,is like selling a horse that earns 30k a year here for 250k!

IMO a big reason they go for big money is because they fit alot of the NW`s classes and people think they can exploit this fact into big profits , Rucker had that one john s ended up with (Pickachu N) he was good for a while and again once they are out of the NW`s they usually end up cheap claimers.

Although Bar Ron Boy A looked good Friday night and (update) Upitagain N looked good tonight

RK
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 11:28:15 PM by RK » Report to moderator   Logged
RK
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2006, 09:15:02 PM »

Derry Ray had Childwood.

I never did hear the story about that horse just got a smile when I asked about it

RK

My bad it was Wolfman , I was thinking about
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 10:18:23 PM by RK » Report to moderator   Logged
edwardwilliam
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2006, 07:58:11 PM »

Speaking of California, here's one to watch: EASTON ALLIANCE N.

Best,
EW

Hope y'all got in on this mare -- as pointed out by my "dry behind the ears" self a month and a half ago.  $32.40 against the best in the Nation.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2006, 08:08:24 PM »

How about Childewood Hanover N ? Was he one of your favorites?

That was one of my favorites, EW can you come up with a race or two of his? I have faith in you.
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