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Author Topic: .10 SUPER  (Read 11363 times)
TC
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« on: October 24, 2005, 07:38:45 PM »

The bet starts Saturday night.  One of Tony's last chances to cash at Crimoral.  Should be a hoot.  TC
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2005, 10:07:22 PM »

CALLING SN............CALLING SN............CALLING SN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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sn
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2005, 10:11:53 PM »

.10 Supers!!!! I'm here!!!! did somebody say .10 supers?Huh??
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TC
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2005, 08:29:02 AM »

BTW, any .10 super fans can thank Mike Antoniades for the ability to play.  He pushed for the bet with management, had all the facts and figures to back him up, and got some of the most set in their ways, non-forward thinkers to implement change.  Plus, no sharing those bets with the bigest bettor in town - because he's leaving.  Score one for the players.  TC
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race track phil
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2005, 02:39:28 PM »

BTW, any .10 super fans can thank Mike Antoniades for the ability to play.  He pushed for the bet with management, had all the facts and figures to back him up, and got some of the most set in their ways, non-forward thinkers to implement change.  Plus, no sharing those bets with the bigest bettor in town - because he's leaving.  Score one for the players.  TC
     T C     are you sure it was mike ? he has told me several times he is against 10 cent wagers . he said 12 horse fields and up the bet is ok . who knows maybe he changed his mind .      RTP
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TC
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2005, 03:40:26 PM »

Good question, Phil.  I don't know how often or when last you spoke to Mike, but he told me Saturday at Balmoral.  I know he may have been against the play in the past, but he's been conducting straw polls at the track for awhile now.  I recommended a quote from the mutuels manager at INDY saying the bet was a "home run" for his track.  I'm sure Mike did all the dilligent research.  The bet is being implemented at Balmoral only, but both tracks will start the super carryover this week, I believe.  I probably see Mike 30 weeks a year, well before the live card at Balmoral starts, before work and live distractions take precedence.  The reality of the popularity of the bet at other tracks, along with getting the jump on the Big M and WEG on the wager, made it a "go" here.  People responded at Hawthorne, so Balmoral is following suit.  TC
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race track phil
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2005, 04:01:29 PM »

            T C  I  do    talk to mike often , and actually he said that only me and him dont like the bet for harness racing . he said maybe were nuts or something , cause we both think down the road the bet will make more bettors bet less money and that the pools will never grow like they use to be ! we both agreed that new bettors will get off betting cheap and thats the way they will bet forever . but if thats what makes bettors happy today . so be it ! and dont get me wrong , I know how to take advantage of the bet and make money with it . and I'm sure others can do the same . thats why SN likes the bet . as much as I dont approve of the bet for the future of racing , I will take advantage when the right race appears . so anyways if it makes the bettors happy today and coming to the track it cant be too bad . but as I said before the racetrack survives on big bettors the majority of the pools are wagered by the same big players and hopefully we dont lose their action in the future . as usual just my opinion .               RTP
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TC
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2005, 04:11:49 PM »

Good call, Phil.  If the handle in the super pool goes up, I'm for the wager.  It also represents a great hedging tool to "buy" certain races where the favorite has no chance IMO.  I don't want to share a big super with a number player or quick-pick .10 bettor either.  That is the dark side of the bet.  The upside is not liking a particular horse to "reach", then getting bailed out for nice money when an "all" is in the right place for a few tickets.  Avoiding IRS liability is a tremendous help because the super must pay $12,000 for $2 to sign for .10, and this is definitely in the player's favor.  TC
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2005, 04:38:23 PM »

Let's see who takes down the most .10 supers. When I can get the programs ahead of time I'll post all my .10 super bets on the forum. Who will be the .10 super king and RUIN the pools for the $1 and #2 super bettors. 
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 04:41:33 PM »

Good call, Phil.  If the handle in the super pool goes up, I'm for the wager.  It also represents a great hedging tool to "buy" certain races where the favorite has no chance IMO.  I don't want to share a big super with a number player or quick-pick .10 bettor either.  That is the dark side of the bet.  The upside is not liking a particular horse to "reach", then getting bailed out for nice money when an "all" is in the right place for a few tickets.  Avoiding IRS liability is a tremendous help because the super must pay $12,000 for $2 to sign for .10, and this is definitely in the player's favor.  TC

Great analysis, TC.

The bet itself doesn't matter to me, as I don't play supers -- I do, however, want the most eyes and dollars pumped into the product.  I'm a little concerned on the negative effect that this bet may have on the big players -- and therefore, the pools.  It'll be interesting to watch.

I, like Mike, want to see one or two 12 horse field put up a night.  Make the race Tri or Super ONLY (no other gimmicks), and guarantee a big pool...it would be fun to shoot at a potental $100k pool.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 06:30:00 PM »

Good Luck seeing those 12 horse fields, Magee hates trailers and he is the "Dean" (no pun intended) now that Tony is shuffling out.  The big bettors will be fine.  The super pools are supposed to rise, and the 1st time a large bettor hits the entire pool on a .10 bet, they'll love it.  Everyone thinks these $120,000 supers are hit by lucky goofs and that's not true.  Plus, the supers are going to have carryovers, so the X-X-X-ALL is a thing of the past as far as the pool paying out.  We shall see this w/e if the bet gets big play or not.  TC
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2005, 07:37:12 PM »

Good Luck seeing those 12 horse fields, Magee hates trailers and he is the "Dean" (no pun intended) now that Tony is shuffling out.  The big bettors will be fine.  The super pools are supposed to rise, and the 1st time a large bettor hits the entire pool on a .10 bet, they'll love it.  Everyone thinks these $120,000 supers are hit by lucky goofs and that's not true.  Plus, the supers are going to have carryovers, so the X-X-X-ALL is a thing of the past as far as the pool paying out.  We shall see this w/e if the bet gets big play or not.  TC

There's a quote that Mike A. uses, and it's perfect in this situation...

Bill France (the President of NASCAR), built the sport from nothing to a multi-billion dollar enterprise.  If you know about the sport, they have "restrictor plates" on the engines on the big tracks, to limit the speed of the cars.  This creates huge packs of cars, because no one is clearly better than anyone else.

This racing is VERY exciting, but also pretty dangerous because the packs of cars create pileups.

At one time, the drivers were complaining to France because they didn't want to race in these unsafe packs -- and he said, "you hear those cheers -- they want to see the good racing -- if you have a problem with it, don't race..."

Trailers are NO different.  There's no reason at all that you couldn't race 12 horses at Balmoral.  A smart management team would just card the races and make it happen.  With the right purse bonuses, the horsemen would be foolish to not participate.

It's all about generating excitement, and creating bets and wagers that other tracks cannot match.  Two 12 horse fields each night, one with a tri only and the other with a super only, would be excellent.  These pools could be guaranteed at 100k, perhaps with a carryover to the next 12 horse race if not hit.

Something needs to be done.  The beautiful part about harness racing as a business is that you get INSTANT feedback when you try a wager.  You know right away whether or not it works -- and can change accordingly.  There's so many things that could be tried -- because let's face it...things are going downhill.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2005, 11:26:26 PM »

EW:
No way in hell the pools are coming close enough to 100,000 for the track to guarantee that amount. I just checked the Saturday super pools at Balmoral in September and October, and the largest was only about 40K, with that coming on Super night in the Orange and Blue. Otherwise the pools were typically in the teens to 20.

Remember, a 6 horse super box on a .10 bet costs a whopping $36. How are you getting near enough to $100 K adding those types of tickets to the pool? The track has to be reasonably confident that they can equal or exceed the guarantee before offering it.

As far as 12 horse fields are concerned, it's not likely the horsemen will agree to it, based on what I've seen in other states. We don't like it for safety reasons and we don't like it because it reduces the chance of earning a purse check.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2005, 12:40:52 AM »

EW:
No way in hell the pools are coming close enough to 100,000 for the track to guarantee that amount. I just checked the Saturday super pools at Balmoral in September and October, and the largest was only about 40K, with that coming on Super night in the Orange and Blue. Otherwise the pools were typically in the teens to 20.

Remember, a 6 horse super box on a .10 bet costs a whopping $36. How are you getting near enough to $100 K adding those types of tickets to the pool? The track has to be reasonably confident that they can equal or exceed the guarantee before offering it.

As far as 12 horse fields are concerned, it's not likely the horsemen will agree to it, based on what I've seen in other states. We don't like it for safety reasons and we don't like it because it reduces the chance of earning a purse check.

The key is that you would ONLY take tri or super wagering on the race -- and no other gimmick.

There's commonly 40-60k tri pools when California is betting our signal.  With a 12 horse field, and without exactas or supers to siphon money away, a 100k pool is very likely.  The super may have to be lower, if .10 bets were taken.  If it were a $1 minimum, it's possible that they could get there.

Bottom line: I would hope to hell that they could get the horsemen to agree to one 12 horse field a week, especially with a slightly enhanced purse structure (up it 20% or so).

The tracks need to make changes right now -- shake things up.  The 12 horse tri has been done in the past here, and it was a HUGE success.  They should try to rekindle the flame.

Best,
EW
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burright
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 01:03:19 PM »

The bottom line is that Hawthorne was the track that originated the 10 cent superfecta in
Chicagoland was the first harness track to introduce it. It only took the brain surgeons at Balmoral
5 months to catch on.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2005, 01:20:01 PM »

The bottom line is that Hawthorne was the track that originated the 10 cent superfecta in
Chicagoland was the first harness track to introduce it. It only took the brain surgeons at Balmoral
5 months to catch on.

Remember, Hawthorne is the ONLY REAL racetrack for BIG LEAGUE harness racing in Chicago. Balmoral and Maywood are in the minor leagues and always will be. Who in their right mind would want to travel to the boondocks to attend live harness racing? If it weren't for simulcasting and intertrack wagering and OTB's Balmoral would be out of business.
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emp
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2005, 02:33:20 PM »

The bottom line is that Hawthorne was the track that originated the 10 cent superfecta in
Chicagoland was the first harness track to introduce it. It only took the brain surgeons at Balmoral
5 months to catch on.

The 'bottom line' is that Joe Scurto is the one who first marketed the concept of the .10 super here in Chicago. He was formerly some kind of marketing exec with Intertrack Partners (who run the OTB consisting of the Johnston's/Steinbrenner, Carey's & Bidwell's) before recently being hired with a marketing position at Hawthorne Racecourse. He loves harness racing as he currently has a few horses trained by McCaffrey on the local circuit.

Your idea that it took the people at Balmoral 5 months to catch on IMO is a little farfetched. It was a business move than anything that took a little time and looked to be more of a strategic plan. The .10 super was approved by the IRB a while ago. All of this needed to be set up with the tote companies as well so there's a lot more behind the scenes that needs to go on more than the simple 'OK we take .10 bets now'.
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Dr.Trotter
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2005, 03:51:13 PM »

Does anyone know if they'll be doing the supers every race like Hawthorne did?
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2005, 05:33:11 PM »

Does anyone know if they'll be doing the supers every race like Hawthorne did?

they should. its a general rule when .10 supers are on the card. every track i've seen with .10 supers, has them every race that there are at least 6 or 7 horses. whatever the minimum is.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2005, 05:41:00 PM »

Does anyone know if they'll be doing the supers every race like Hawthorne did?

God I hope not.

The only thing I didn't like about the Hawthorne meet was that they watered down their pools by offering too many darn gimmicks...had 8-9 supers, tris on all, two pick fours, and 7-8 rolling pick 3s.  Waay too many pools.  Keep in simple, and give the gamblers chances to hit on BIG pools.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2005, 05:51:22 PM »

They won't have supers in every race with carryovers because IMO, they want overnight buzz about the carryover and with 10 or 12 supers a night, carryovers would be less likely.  TC
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2005, 05:54:13 PM »

They won't have supers in every race with carryovers because IMO, they want overnight buzz about the carryover and with 10 or 12 supers a night, carryovers would be less likely.  TC

Do you actually think there will BE carryovers with the 10 cent bet?  You don't see too many ALL tickets when you can run the table for cheap...

Maybe they should consider making the "carryover super" a dollar only bet and have one per night?

Best,
EW
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2005, 06:15:42 PM »

The "hot" wagers now are Pick 4s and .10 supers.  We need to streamline the total amounts and types of wagers, as you said EW, but these 2 bets are where fan interest is greatest.  Just for the record, A $1 min. Pick 6 is being looked into at Balmoral.  Feel free to comment on that possible wager.  TC
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2005, 06:22:57 PM »

The "hot" wagers now are Pick 4s and .10 supers.  We need to streamline the total amounts and types of wagers, as you said EW, but these 2 bets are where fan interest is greatest.  Just for the record, A $1 min. Pick 6 is being looked into at Balmoral.  Feel free to comment on that possible wager.  TC

I wish they'd follow the Big M's lead and have a low take pick 4.  Could be the best bet in harness racing with the 15%.

I would agree that the .10 supers are dominating the mind of bettors, and on two fronts: Joe Q. Public can now box to his hearts content for cheap, and sharp cappers can ditch the tax ramifications of a nice hit.

I agree completely with, however, in that the key is making sure not to perform attrition on the pools by overkill.  By building the card correctly, with full fields in these races (super and pick 4), and also trying to get California on for at least the pick 4 -- forward strides can be made.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2005, 06:29:35 PM »

OH, I forgot that the Bal-Cal is scheduled to make a comeback - but perhaps midweek due to Autotote software problems and such.  They can't schedule the thing earlier in the card right now and the track wants lots of players, so the bet is being placed on hold.  TC
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