Chicago Barn to Wire BRIS
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


September 02, 2014, 07:09:01 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: AP Looking Better  (Read 5559 times)
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1015




Ignore
« on: February 01, 2006, 01:15:21 PM »

I recently returned from Florida and 2 days at Gulfstream. It's certainly a marvelous simulcast facility and all ready for slots. As far as a race track goes, I was disappointed. Someone's already called it the Taj Mahal. That's exactly what it reminds me of. A Las Vegas casino with a racetrack out back. The paddock is out of public view  and open to connections only. The only free seating is 900 "stadium" seats surrounding the walking ring. There are only 900 outdoor grandstand seats facing the track with half reserved for horsemen/owners. The other 450 are available to the public for $10. There really is no where for someone to sit peacefully in the sun, have a beer and enjoy the races. Even if by TVs/monitors. Anyway, after this trip, I have a greater appreciation for AP with its paddock, grandstand, park and apron seating. The $6 to get in doesn't look so bad now.

When I return to Floridia next winter, I'll be visiting Tampa Bay Downs after going to GP for years.

Ed
Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 11:59:48 PM »

Ed,
   I agree with your comments on the new Gulfstream - I was there the second week of January and the physical facility is much nicer, though much smaller. The expansive park-like grounds of the old track are gone - it's mostly concrete. Even with the significant interior upgrade, Gulfstream stilll falls far short of Arlington for overall ambiance. I did like the free seating surrounding the walking ring, but the saddling underneath the track out of the public's view sucks. (Helloooo Hawrthorne South). Anyone who goes to GP will certainly miss/appreciate Arlington's abundance of free seats. What is truly ironic and in some ways tragic, GP is steering its customers indoors in a location that begs to capitalize on the outdoors ie Florida in the winter (typical racetrack management illlogic). The GP flimsy track program is typical of most in that it's contains name, pg number and ML. Arlington's program which is included free with admission is far more comprehensive and still the best of any track that I've been to. Finally, I watched/wagered on an average of 4-5 maiden and bottom rung claimers every day at GP - so to all the AP bashers out there please don't tell me how much worse AP's racing is - it isn't. While I was at GP the "crowds were no more than 5K-8K, what a shame. Having said all that, it still was great being in South Florida in mid January under sunny skies and high 70's watching my favorite pasttime and I'll be returning in Feb over President's Day weekend. Hopefully the place will eventually become more popular with racegoers, before the influx of influx of slot players.
 
      I also spent the week after Christmas visiting my daughter in Valencia, CA and managed to attend Santa Anita several times. I've been there before and it hasn't changed - put that decaying facility in Illinois and it's Hawthorne West. The racing is clearly superior to anything our way though. Most of you who are familiar with my previous posts know that I think there is no finer racetrack facility-wise than Arlington. Havng just returned from two of the so-called best, my opinion is firmer and I can't wait for the first week in May for AP's opening to get here.     

Pete
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 12:21:05 AM »

Geez ... I don't think anyone here complains about the Arlington facility itself, do they?

However, since you brought it up ...

When you're reduced to a position of saying how nice your racetrack is, it reminds me of those loser Cub fans who, in the face of another stinko losing year by the pathetic baseball team on the field (you know, baseball, the thing you buy the ticket to see), start telling you how much they love Wrigley Field.

"Think I'll go to Wrigley today. Mmmmm, yeah. The ivy, the bleachers, the history, the smell of the popcorn and stale Old Style. The Cubs? I really don't care. No really, I don't. If they win that's okay, and if they lose that's okay. I'm going to see Wrigley. Really! No, I'm not a liar!"

Right.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 12:51:51 AM »

Geez ... I don't think anyone here complains about the Arlington facility itself, do they?

However, since you brought it up ...

When you're reduced to a position of saying how nice your racetrack is, it reminds me of those loser Cub fans who, in the face of another stinko losing year by the pathetic baseball team on the field (you know, baseball, the thing you buy the ticket to see), start telling you how much they love Wrigley Field.

"Think I'll go to Wrigley today. Mmmmm, yeah. The ivy, the bleachers, the history, the smell of the popcorn and stale Old Style. The Cubs? I really don't care. No really, I don't. If they win that's okay, and if they lose that's okay. I'm going to see Wrigley. Really! No, I'm not a liar!"

Right.


Thanks for the clarity, Terry. Six horse fields suck, no matter how nice the facility. This is something the AP-huggers like Pete and APCD Dan will never admit -- as long as it's at AP, they could be betting on three fat dancing girls and a one-legged *** playing a kazoo, and they wouldn't care a bit. Lost causes, both of 'em -- neither would know how to bet full fields like those offered at Hawthorne if they had tomorrow's newspaper today.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 12:58:14 AM by Horse Voice » Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3747




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 03:14:34 PM »

Thanks for the clarity, Terry. Six horse fields suck, no matter how nice the facility. This is something the AP-huggers like Pete and APCD Dan will never admit -- as long as it's at AP, they could be betting on three fat dancing girls and a one-legged *** playing a kazoo, and they wouldn't care a bit. Lost causes, both of 'em -- neither would know how to bet full fields like those offered at Hawthorne if they had tomorrow's newspaper today.

That's true for me for Hawthorne.  In fact, January and the first half of February are a pleasant break for me from Hawthorne, especially January when AP was the simulcast host and there was no juice.  Strange though, I do OK at Tampa which has the same level of racing as Hawthorne, or just maybe they have better horses down there now.  Hawthorne Voice, you are a funny guy, keep the jokes coming!
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 03:21:03 PM »

Not wanting to get in your face, but I thought you wrote you evened at tampa.

Me, I'm now CHOKING on chalk and looking forward to what's due once the table levels, I'm guessing.
Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 05:18:23 PM »

HV and Terry,
   Hey here's a "radical" thought for you to digest and it comes from my 37 years as a fan of the sport and my witness to the significant change in the relative importance of three key ingredients of TB racing -handicapping, wagering, and following and identifying with its participants. It is this change I submit, that has significantly elevated the importance of the facility for on track attendees/fans. The quality of the facility will continue to grow in importance due to the advent of simulcasting, internet and home wagering. Frankly no one (ok you will, so make that few) will go to a dump to watch the races live anymore. On the other hand many more will go to an Arlington to watch "lower quality" racing because of the facility and overall ambiance. Believe me I don't defend the quality of racing at AP, it is what it is - pretty poor. But I don't want to get into another discussion as to why that is and who is to blame. I'm going to stick with addressing why AP has a much better chance of attracting newcomers to the sport and holding on to current fans than a track like Hawthorne.  

  When I first began following TB racing in college in 1968 through to the beginning of full scale simulcasting, the sport and the participants (specific horses/jockeys/trainers) contributed at least 3/4 to my interest, the betting aspects about a quarter. Sure the game was driven by wagering even then, and I was certainly highly attracted by that aspect, but the glamour of the sport wasn't confined to the BC, Triple Crown and the occasional really good Grade 1 event as it seems to be today. Many, many more of the horses were "special" whether they were claimers or stakes caliber and many more of the races and rivalries were significant. The track facility was not all that important to me - it did contribute to the enjoyment of the event, but certainly not that much. I regularly attended old Sportsman's Park and Hawthorne and thoroughly enjoyed myself.

   What has changed? Simulcasting and off track wagering have obviously become the primary drivers of the sport, our population highly prefers comfort and convenience, and it generally has a short attention span due to the multitude of entertainment options available. Horses are no longer names, they're numbers. The class/quality of the next race is almost meaningless to the simulcast bettor, it's more about wagering opportunity. That being the case, it really doesn't matter to many attendees whether AP has high quality races or large fields - they can play the on track races or bet simulcast. (I suspect most newcomers and non hard core fans don't even mind shorter fields because it's less complicated and easier to cash a bet). On track attendees are there to have a good time and whether you want to acknowledge it or not, they do. The facility and ambiance have thus become much more important in attracting new fans and holding on to current ones.

   Regrettably, we will never return to "the good old days" when the sport itself was more important than it is today. I truly wish it would, but it won't happen. That doesn't mean however one can't utilize it as a great entertainment option, and that's what I do. AP management has many faults and has made some very poor decisions over the years, but no more than most other tracks and track managements.
AP continues to be a great place to have a good time for core and non-core fans despite its "shortcomings" and that can't be said for the majority of racetracks. I'm willing to wager that in several years many tracks and racinos will either drop the sport or become vacant "studios" for broadcasting live racing, because of dwindling on track attendance and at-home betting. That includes Hawthorne. Others that attract fans to the track as an entertainment vehicle in addition to racing afficianados have a much better chance of surviving. I put AP in thar category.

Pete
 
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 05:49:35 PM »

Well said. May i say this that the MEDIA is a strange self-promoting beast, constantly in search of revenue. They will extort, strong-arm, and blackmail in their search for advertising revenue, this is a fact.

If they feel a corporation, say, is not advertising enough, they send reporters out looking for a scandal and broadcast this on TV. Or they will, likewise, write an unfavorable article and send an exec over with a duplicate copy and with the threat they will print such story. The "client" usually gets the message, pretty quick.

I think local racing would benefit from more favorable exposure on television, highlighting the color of the sport, the personalities, etc., but it would take a commitment from racing. You know, this YUM thing is a perfect example, albeit not an exactly accurate one.

I guess you could call it "product placement." If you watch Broadcast TV, that c**p is ALL OVER every show now. I don't know about cable or satellite, I never watch it, but i watch Broadcast TV.

So, you pay for good press, and that's advertising revenue. They don't care if your sh*t smells like Chanel. The public doesn't need to know and they only want the money.




Report to moderator   Logged
mottoman
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2826




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 07:06:59 PM »

Great post PJCLEVE, you are right on my friend!!
Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 07:37:56 PM »

PJCLEVE,

Excellent points you make, you are absolutely correct.

Guys like ClockerTerry and his ilk can't seem to understand
modern day racetrack marketing. AP does this better than
almost any other track I can think of. "Racing for the masses"
if you will, Arlington understands the need to broadened it's
audience - Friday's "Party in the Park" and Sunday "Family Days"
are great innovations and always well attended by regular and
novice players alike.

Hawthorne on the other hand, well, if your idea of fun is spending
your day with overweight, disheveled hardened gamblers (which
describes ClockerTerry and 90% of the patrons at Hawthorne)
God bless you, enjoy the Hawthorne experience.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 07:59:21 PM by robertv » Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Guest

« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 07:44:03 PM »

I agree with most of PJCLEVE wrote.Eventhough Hawthorne's facility and location are not attractive, Hawthorne promotions and marketing are to people who already go to the track and in my opinion they gave up on attracting new customers.(Hawthorne) will last longer than AP. Hawthorne"s management (the Carey"s) are committed to the sport, they try promotions (they don't work though) , have a low maintenance facility (AP Water Bill is more than Hawthorne's repair and maintenance) and most importantly sit on land that is almost useless. They have no other option other than to race.

AP, is owned by a public corporation as with any other publically held Corporation purpose is to maximize shareholder value. AP is worth more to the shareholders if the land is sold to a developer. Churchill rid of Hollywood beacuse it was loser and  if AP does not get slots it will do the same. It a matter of when and not if. DD or no DD. Sad but true.
Report to moderator   Logged
Ed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1015




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 07:51:32 PM »

Pete - I agree. The only folks left at Hawthorne will be the same ones playing the free (comp'ed) contests in the handicapping center.

Ed
Report to moderator   Logged
laurajean
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 586




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 08:01:59 PM »

"Hawthorne on the other hand, well, if your idea of fun is spending
your day with overweight, dishelved hardened gamblers (which describes
ClockerTerry and 90% of the patrons at Hawthorne) God bless you,
enjoy the Hawthorne experience."

why thank you I will.
Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Guest

« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2006, 08:16:05 PM »

Another point, on track attendance is a dying issue. Gulfstream had the atmosphere, sunshine and great racing and stronach made into Simo facility. The atmosphere is gone and unless you want to sit on a bench surrounded by asphalt there is no sunshine. It is no mistake you do not see grass as Gulfstream too much landscaping and maintenance. Tracks want slots and thats it.
Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2006, 08:19:36 PM »

laurajean,

Oops - I forgot, a few bag lady types also enjoy the Hawthorne
experience. Sorry for excluding you on my previous post Sad
Report to moderator   Logged
Stat
Full Member
***
Posts: 131




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2006, 08:30:38 PM »

Laura Jean: to clarify your thinking on "third world countries"  just think of the Hawthorne asphalt jungle grandstand.  It does put Trackside second floor to shame.
Report to moderator   Logged
laurajean
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 586




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2006, 08:52:34 PM »

Your very welcome Robertv. I am a lady and I do go through Hawthorne with my bag.  And I can say that Hawthorne, unlike AP, is red hat club free. And as I have a grave free of being forced to where ugly combinations of red and purple, I am happy when I don't see that group.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3747




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2006, 08:57:41 PM »

"Not wanting to get in your face, but I thought you wrote you evened at tampa." 

I did, that is defined as OK for me.  I do not usually come close to that at Hawthorne.
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2006, 09:06:04 PM »

Yeah, that is good.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2006, 10:16:36 PM »

I don't know that I follow your logic, Pete.
 
How will AP succeed and Hawthorne fail when all AP seems to do right is get an slight increase in live attendance (and very slight at that), while Hawthorne now outhandles AP (total average daily handle), and pays more in daily purses than AP?
 
Everybody else with the denigrating comments about Hawthorne's clientele: you're full of it. There are plenty of unseemly and otherwise fat-assed loser-types at AP; take off your rose-colored glasses and you might see them. Yeah, there are tons of young folks and moms with strollers, and pretty girls for old goats to ogle, too, but how much do they add to handle, really?

My money says AP shuts down long before Hawthorne ever will, if for no other reason than what another posted (or at least hinted at): the land that AP is built on is *way* more attractive as development parcel than as a racetrack; Hawthorne, obviously not. By all means, enjoy AP while it is still around, if that is your cup of tea. I'll see you at Hawthorne when AP shuts down.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2006, 11:24:41 PM »

The quality of the facility will continue to grow in importance due to the advent of simulcasting, internet and home wagering. Frankly no one (ok you will, so make that few) will go to a dump to watch the races live anymore. On the other hand many more will go to an Arlington to watch "lower quality" racing because of the facility and overall ambiance.
...
I'm willing to wager that in several years many tracks and racinos will either drop the sport or become vacant "studios" for broadcasting live racing, because of dwindling on track attendance and at-home betting. That includes Hawthorne. Others that attract fans to the track as an entertainment vehicle in addition to racing afficianados have a much better chance of surviving. I put AP in thar category.

I agree with you that tracks are becoming simulcast studios. But I think big fancy tracks like AP are a thing of the past, nice day out for Biff and Buff or not. A few "destinations" like Saratoga, Keeneland, Del Mar, and Oaklawn will continue to do okay for some years, because they have good racing. As far as AP, you can already see evidence of dwindling crowds. When did you ever see half the grandstand floor closed off like it has been weekdays the past few years. The racing isn't good enough to attract big crowds like those other tracks get.

I don't like it but Frank's self-proclaimed taj mahal in Florida is probably the wave of the future for the run of the mill "live" racetrack. Nice little place for the 2,000 or so that come out, but mostly a curiosity for the casino patrons, and not a lot of space wasted on racing crowds. I think the ones that survive longest may well be the simulcast studios with very low racing overhead and a casino. Ever been to Delta Downs? There's maybe 20 people besides horsemen watching the live racing. Not even anything in the line of seats for you to watch from. But out in the racing world that craphole is all the rage. Big success story. Big purses for horsemen running the same old crappy horses. A few more people play their signal from the simulcast centers.
Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2006, 11:28:57 PM »

HV said - "My money says AP shuts down long before Hawthorne ever will, ........... By all means, enjoy AP while it is still around, if that is your cup of tea. I'll see you at Hawthorne when AP shuts down."

HV,
   Thank you. I do and will continue to enjoy AP, and if it ever shuts down (I doubt it) you certainly won't find me at Hawthorne. Why on earth would I subject myself to that crappy experience. Let's just agree to disagree on what floats our respective boats - you and Terry to name a few prefer Haw, and AP is my favorite track. I know I'm not going to get you to publicly admit to anything different, and rest assured I will never change my mind. Some people are satidfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy.  

Pete    
Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2006, 12:07:12 AM »

Terry you said - "But I think big fancy tracks like AP are a thing of the past, nice day out for Biff and Buff or not."

Do you object to fancy tracks? And are you saying Hawthorne is the future?

Terry - "A few destinations like Saratoga, Keeneland, Del Mar, and Oaklawn will continue to do okay for some years, because they have good racing."

Get serious Terry and get your facts straight. With the exception of the Festival of racing, Oaklawn is nothing special. It's currently averaging less than 8K daily on weekdays running 4 days a week. Keenland and Saratoga do very well in part because there is no other viable entertainment options and their respective states support the product much better than Illinois does. By the way AP's attendance sure looks pretty good compared to those classy tracks AQU, SA and GP - all averaging less than 5K daily on weekdays. Check the charts. I don't know if they close off sections of their grandstand too - if they don't they must be empty caverns.

Terry - "As far as AP, you can already see evidence of dwindling crowds. When did you ever see half the grandstand floor closed off like it has been weekdays the past few years. The racing isn't good enough to attract big crowds like those other tracks get."

See above. Besides the four tracks you name, how many others of the 50 or so remaining outdraws AP? Very few. You know what really bugs me about you Terry is that you try to pass yourself off as a factual expert, and you either skew the facts to suit your argument or you're just a flat out bullshitter. It may work for some on this forum but not me.

Pete



Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2006, 12:56:39 AM »

Terry you said - "But I think big fancy tracks like AP are a thing of the past, nice day out for Biff and Buff or not."

Do you object to fancy tracks? And are you saying Hawthorne is the future?

I don't object to fancy tracks at all. I'm just saying most "big" tracks, which would include both our local emporiums, with the exception of a few destinations, are obsolete, and will become more obsolete.

Quote
Get serious Terry and get your facts straight. With the exception of the Festival of racing, Oaklawn is nothing special. It's currently averaging less than 8K daily on weekdays running 4 days a week.

8K daily beats what Arlington averaged, and that's a much MUCH smaller market than Chicagoland. People travel there on purpose. It's jammed every weekend. It's a seasonal destination for racing fans from all over the country. Arlington is mostly what local people do when they can't think of anything better. Except for Million weekend, when people travel.

Quote
By the way AP's attendance sure looks pretty good compared to those classy tracks AQU, SA and GP

I didn't say anything about those tracks on purpose. You could throw Belmont and Hollywood in as well. I said Saratoga, Del Mar, Keeneland, and Oaklawn. Gulfstream I'm not sure about. I think they screwed that place up so bad no one wants to go or can go. No way could it physically handle 8K per day.

Quote
I don't know if they close off sections of their grandstand too - if they don't they must be empty caverns.

Aqueduct, Belmont, and Santa Anita are very empty week days. Just like Arlington. I don't remember sections closed but it's been awhile since I visted them all.

Quote
Besides the four tracks you name, how many others of the 50 or so remaining outdraws AP?

Don't know and don't care, that's why I didn't name any others, they're all on my "obsolete" list. My post wasn't about "who has highest average daily attendance" today, it was about "which tracks will still be attracting large live crowds in coming years'.

Quote
You know really bugs me about you Terry is that you try to pass yourself off as a factual expert, and you either skew the facts to suit your argument or you're just a flat out bullshitter. It may work for some on this forum but not me.

What bothers me about you is you're such a Arlington homer you don't read. Go back and read what I wrote. You're arguing a bunch of things I didn't write. There was nothing in there at all about current daily attendance. It was about what tracks I thought would still be in business, and how, down the road.

Report to moderator   Logged
mark_maegdlin
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 61


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2006, 01:55:04 AM »

From my view point, Hawthorn has treated me better.  I have lost less money at Hawthorn and have had more fun playing the races.  My wife and I have eaten at the good restraunt at Arlington and my wife prefers the chicken strips and fries at Hawthorn.  She tipped one of the food workes 50 cents and now they give her a double order whenever she is there.  ahahahaI prefer watching the races when it is cold so Hawthorn just feels right to me. horse mm
Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2006, 09:58:11 AM »

Let's just agree to disagree on what floats our respective boats - you and Terry to name a few prefer Haw, and AP is my favorite track. I know I'm not going to get you to publicly admit to anything different, and rest assured I will never change my mind. Some people are satidfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy. 

Pete   
Quote

Pete,

Love the Pepsi and macaroni/wine and steak analogy  Smiley  here's another one ClockerTerry can relate to:

Lodging: Terry - Super 8 or Motel 6
             You or I - Hyatt or Marriott

And like you correctly stated......these guys will never change their opinions about Arlington or Haw.

Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2006, 10:29:11 AM »

Love the Pepsi and macaroni/wine and steak analogy  Smiley  here's another one ClockerTerry can relate to:

Lodging: Terry - Super 8 or Motel 6
             You or I - Hyatt or Marriott

Good thinking, I'll try to remember. There's so many of those Hyatts and Marriotts out in the little interstate towns 300 miles from anywhere.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3747




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2006, 11:38:48 PM »

"Let's just agree to disagree on what floats our respective boats - you and Terry to name a few prefer Haw, and AP is my favorite track. I know I'm not going to get you to publicly admit to anything different, and rest assured I will never change my mind. Some people are satidfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy." - Pete

Great job, Pete, you said it best.  What is boils down to is those who like racing, like Arlington, and those who just like betting, like Hawthorne. Count me with you, Pete!
Report to moderator   Logged
Thomas Graham
Guest

« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2006, 12:53:11 AM »

That's a bit of an over simplification Dan.

It's possible to like racing and like Hawthorne, and to like betting and like Arlington.

To Pete and Dan, aesthetics and ammenities are more important than they are to others.  No arguing Arlington is a beautiful facility, but have things I like about Hawthorne as well (having little to do with the rebates as I dn't bet enough to warrant anything significant).

I would point out that if Hawthorne raced during the summer they'd probably experiece a similar lack of large fields especially since I don't think their turf could hold up to 200 races a season (not a knock, just a reflection of its size compares to AP).  Think summer of '98 and '99 --- racing wasn't all that different at Hawthorne than what you saw at Arlington outside of the stakes program.  Fields at the high end stuggled as thy do at AP.

To each his own.  I enjoy my summers at Arlington and my spring and fall at Hawthorne.  I probably make more trips to AP than I do to HAW but I think its more a function of the weather than anything else.

TJG
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2006, 01:55:49 AM »

To Pete, and all of the other posters smooching his butt about what great posts he's making: *please* continue with the Diet Pepsi & macaroni vs. Merlot & steak analogies -- your pretentiousness is fascinating!
Report to moderator   Logged
Stat
Full Member
***
Posts: 131




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2006, 07:45:58 AM »

Hey, Terry some bad mouthing you at OTB. Some people say you are over 300 lbs. I say, you can't be. Anyone that fat, can't be a good handicapper. ( Not enough blood flow to the brain)
Tell Stat, I am right in defending you.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2006, 10:12:16 AM »

Great job, Pete, you said it best.  What is boils down to is those who like racing, like Arlington, and those who just like betting, like Hawthorne. Count me with you, Pete!

How about this modification: "Those who like pretty racetracks (and non-scary crowds), like Arlington". It's the "racing" that's the heart of the complaints.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2006, 10:17:02 AM »

Hey, Terry some bad mouthing you at OTB. Some people say you are over 300 lbs. I say, you can't be. Anyone that fat, can't be a good handicapper. ( Not enough blood flow to the brain)
Tell Stat, I am right in defending you.

Why would I care what clowns at that OTB say? Besides John Frank knows me, so he could answer your question. Thanks for your support though, and you are right.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1397




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2006, 10:47:16 AM »

Terry you said - "But I think big fancy tracks like AP are a thing of the past, nice day out for Biff and Buff or not."

Do you object to fancy tracks? And are you saying Hawthorne is the future?

Terry - "A few destinations like Saratoga, Keeneland, Del Mar, and Oaklawn will continue to do okay for some years, because they have good racing."

Get serious Terry and get your facts straight. With the exception of the Festival of racing, Oaklawn is nothing special. It's currently averaging less than 8K daily on weekdays running 4 days a week. Keenland and Saratoga do very well in part because there is no other viable entertainment options and their respective states support the product much better than Illinois does. By the way AP's attendance sure looks pretty good compared to those classy tracks AQU, SA and GP - all averaging less than 5K daily on weekdays. Check the charts. I don't know if they close off sections of their grandstand too - if they don't they must be empty caverns.

Terry - "As far as AP, you can already see evidence of dwindling crowds. When did you ever see half the grandstand floor closed off like it has been weekdays the past few years. The racing isn't good enough to attract big crowds like those other tracks get."

See above. Besides the four tracks you name, how many others of the 50 or so remaining outdraws AP? Very few. You know what really bugs me about you Terry is that you try to pass yourself off as a factual expert, and you either skew the facts to suit your argument or you're just a flat out bullshitter. It may work for some on this forum but not me.

Pete





Monmouth outdraws AP. always has always will.and monmouth has bigger fields and much better purses. Now the track itself isn't as swanky (expect in some portions of the clubhourse), but 2 bucks to get in, picnic area at the top of the stretch that outdones AP by far and the ability to bring in outside food and beverages makes monmouth a happening place each summer.
Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
big wally
Guest

« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2006, 11:34:11 AM »

Monmouth average attendence  was 9,000, Arlington 7,200. Arlington still outhandled Moumouth on a total handle base 4.3m to 3.1m and on-track handle 700k to 650k (2005 figures). I am guessing before the riverboats came in Arlingtons attendence was much greater than Mounmouth. You can bring your own food in to Arlington also just not fast food packaged food.

Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2006, 11:49:01 AM »

Why would I care what clowns at that OTB say? Besides John Frank knows me, so he could answer your question. Thanks for your support though, and you are right.

Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?  ............. I dunno.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 11:50:49 AM by robertv » Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2006, 12:03:49 PM »

Thomas you made some very good points on this subject and I'd like to add to two points you made concerning AP and Haw:

"It's possible to like racing and like Hawthorne, and to like betting and like Arlington."

You're right on on this point Thomas. Terry and HV would like this group to believe that anyone who likes AP is a snob and/or not a serious bettor. Talk about PRETENTIOUS HV. The fact is my wagering averages between $60K-$70K/year. That probably doesn't put me on a level with HV or Terry, but it's not chump change. I take my racing seriously and ohmygosh Terry, I actually find many excellent wagering opportunities at AP - yes even in a six horse field. I don't make enough at the track to live on, but fortunately I don't have to. It does remain a serious pasttime for me and supports itself.

That brings me to another comment Thomas made:  

"To Pete and Dan, aesthetics and ammenities are more important than they are to others."

Agreed. For fans that value those qualities, AP will be a very viable option. Certainly there's nothing wrong with that is there? For fans where that isn't important Haw might be an acceptable choice, but why would they go there when they could just sit at home or at a more convenient OTB and wager?  

I got into this thread because Terry continued with his BS that AP is not very popular and/or is going downhill as evidenced by it's "small crowds" and "having to shut down half its grandstand on weekdays". My point is there are very few tracks that out draw AP. Tery was able to name a few in a weak attempt to recover. He and HV also like to portray AP fans as snobs because they enjoy its ambiance. Pretentious HV?

Bottom line: For those who enjoy going to AP - to borrow from the Miller Light commercial - its a great place AND decent betting opportunities. Sadly only the latter at best applies to Haw. Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

Pete
Report to moderator   Logged
Thomas Graham
Guest

« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2006, 12:49:21 PM »

Pete:

One thing I prefer Hawthorne to Arlington for is free seating with a view of the track. Yes, the third floor seats are the stadium fold down seats and at times are in desparate need of cleaning, but at least I'm not charged $3-$5 to sit in a half (or 3/4) empty grandstand.

HAW is not the hell hole you and Dan portray it to be.  Compared to Arlingtom, most places pale.  And I wouldn't go to an OTB and pay a surcharge when I can drive to HAW almost as easy, and while I occasionally play at home, I prefer to be able to see the paddock and post parade in person if I'm going to wager my precious fixed income on the live, local product.

TJG
Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Guest

« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2006, 01:10:49 PM »

TJG,

A/P has plenty of free seats, just go to the last three sections of the grandstand.
Report to moderator   Logged
Thomas Graham
Guest

« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2006, 01:45:15 PM »

Just the last section most days, but your point is noted.
Report to moderator   Logged
Horse Voice
Guest

« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2006, 02:05:34 PM »

Terry and HV would like this group to believe that anyone who likes AP is a snob and/or not a serious bettor. Talk about PRETENTIOUS HV.

Some serious bettors prefer 6-horse fields and $8.20 exactas; if you show a profit, I don't care which race you made the profit in -- I tip my hat to you.

But I didn't make the macaroni vs. steak comment, Pete -- you did. It was pretentious and you got called on it.

One can like AP and not a snob about it -- but that doesn't describe you at all. Admit it, you've been looking down your nose at Hawthorne, and the people who like the place, for far longer than this forum has been around: I remember your posts from way back when you used to post to The Derby List. At least you are consistently pretentious.

Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

Pete

...and if this happens, and the other thing, and we get slots, and the dollar gets stronger and the price of oil drops, and they find a cure for eczema, etc...yeah, I've chewed on all of those exciting possibilities for the 20 years I've been in the game.

Hasn't happened. Ain't gonna happen. That's why I think a track like AP is deader than Kelso's nuts -- the land is simply too valuable for other more profitable uses to keep subsidizing a losing product like horse racing. We can banter back and forth about this some more, if you'd like, but it's a waste of time: it's all in the hands of the CD corporate number-crunchers, even as we speak. Chew on that.
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2006, 02:31:39 PM »

n/t
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 02:54:09 PM by edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERbiggestal
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1397




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2006, 04:53:29 PM »

Monmouth average attendence  was 9,000, Arlington 7,200. Arlington still outhandled Moumouth on a total handle base 4.3m to 3.1m and on-track handle 700k to 650k (2005 figures). I am guessing before the riverboats came in Arlingtons attendence was much greater than Mounmouth. You can bring your own food in to Arlington also just not fast food packaged food.



Monmouth On track 645K AP On Track 575K Monmouth Outhandled AP on track by more the 10% and more than 10% in attendance.

Monmouth clearly a better draw. and Oh BTW the slots at AC are right down the road.
 and this at a track that is 60 years old. and BTW monmouth has never closed
any part of its grandstand for any reason. Grin
Report to moderator   Logged

Kickers beat one-pacers almost every time.
big wally
Guest

« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2006, 05:11:42 PM »

My Mistake.  Certaintly helps that you dont race during the week in May and State wide only race six months of the year.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 06:13:39 PM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
robertv
Guest

« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2006, 08:48:00 PM »

One can like AP and not a snob about it -- but that doesn't describe you at all. Admit it, you've been looking down your nose at Hawthorne, and the people who like the place.

Quote

I will never apologize for having the sentiments ascribed above, the fact is I ( and many others ) will always look down
on Hawthorne Race Course as an inferior racing "experience" and we have valid reasons for such feelings. I just cannot
understand why folks like HV and ClockerTerry argue so vigoroulsy as to the merits of HAW vs. AP - surely in their hearts
they must know AP is superior in so,so many ways compared to the Stickney facility.




« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 08:50:12 PM by robertv » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2006, 08:49:43 PM »

I got into this thread because Terry continued with his BS that AP is not very popular and/or is going downhill as evidenced by it's "small crowds" and "having to shut down half its grandstand on weekdays". My point is there are very few tracks that out draw AP. Tery was able to name a few in a weak attempt to recover. He and HV also like to portray AP fans as snobs because they enjoy its ambiance. Pretentious HV?

Here we are again, right where we have always ended up with Pete, going back 10 years to the Derby List, arguing things that no one said. 

You did not "get into this thread because Terry continued", you were already in it about four posts. The comment about shutting down the grandstand was in my comment about what type of tracks I thought would be around in the future, after you had shared your vision of why Arlington was the racetrack of the future. That's what it was, a different vision. But now all of a sudden it was a huge insult to you, and the destination tracks I named are some "weak attempt to recover" in an argument about current daily attendance that was never an argument! Who cares? If we wanted to argue current daily attendence we'd trot out tracks like Santa Anita that truly kick Arlington's butt.

Quote
Bottom line: For those who enjoy going to AP - to borrow from the Miller Light commercial - its a great place AND decent betting opportunities. Sadly only the latter at best applies to Haw. Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

Guess what, einstein? If the purses in Illinois magically go up, they will be going up at Hawthorne, too. Unless, of course, your wish comes true and Dick manages to force Hawthorne out of business so he can have the monopoly on Chicago racing the two of you dream of every night. And think about it realistically, how much would Arlington purses have to go up to attract the type of horses you think belong there? That's right, to above the $500k/day mark, because the horses you want are running at places like Keeneland and Belmont and Saratoga and Santa Anita, not Canterbury and Prairie Meadows and Lone Star and Lousisiana Downs. The extra horses you're going to get at Arlington with anything less, like $300k per day, are just a few more Illinois breds, and cheap claimers drawn away from the latter tier of tracks, because the big tracks will still be offering more money. Chew on that!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 09:06:40 PM by CLOCKERTERRY » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2006, 08:59:48 PM »

I just cannot understand why folks like HV and ClockerTerry argue so vigoroulsy as to the merits of HAW vs. AP - surely in their hearts they must know AP is superior in so,so many ways compared to the Stickney facility.

What I know in my heart is that I visit Hawthorne so, so many more times during the course of a year than Arlington, and there are reasons for it. If you cannot understand why, that's your problem, not mine. Unless you are in Arlington marketing, I cannot understand why folks like you even care.
Report to moderator   Logged
APCD Dan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3747




Ignore
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2006, 09:17:45 PM »

Hey, we got new electronic paper towel dispensers in the bathrooms at Trackside.  They were out of towels but it was the thought that counted.

Also, John Frank said there will always be an Arlington, so end of that argument.

Seriously, maybe we tend to like the tracks that we liver closer to more than the ones further away.  You don't have to chew on that, too much chewing going on here.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2006, 09:35:04 PM »

Hey, we got new electronic paper towel dispensers in the bathrooms at Trackside.  They were out of towels but it was the thought that counted.

At least the two tracks have ONE thing in common. Towel dispensers in the Hawthorne 1st floor, east end, men's room are also often out of towels.

Quote
Also, John Frank said there will always be an Arlington, so end of that argument.

Why didn't he speak up sooner? Would have saved us all a lot of typing.
Report to moderator   Logged
pjcleve
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 451




Ignore
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2006, 09:42:16 PM »

Terry quote: "Here we are again, right where we have always ended up with Pete, going back 10 years to the Derby List, arguing things that no one said".

Yes Terry I do remember 10 years ago on the Derby Digest. You were bashing Dick as usual on everything from $3 beers to "spensive" turkey wraps, crowing about AP beiing closed, and Spt and Haw being the saviors of ILL racing. Things haven't changed ....... or have they? Spts is finished, AP is back and Haw is still a dump. Well 1/3 probably isn't too bad for you. Quit your weasel-mouth reconstructing of the past. If you aren't a lawyer you should be. I'm not going to respond to your BS about what I said and didn't say anymore - it's far too tiresome and I don't have unlimited time to address your crap like you seem to have. Please don't take my lack of response to your followup posts on this subject as anything other than contempt. I'll take HV's wise words below to heart.
  
Horse Voice quote "We can banter back and forth about this some more, if you'd like, but it's a waste of time:"

Fair enough HV. You're absolutely right. Our banter won't change the current situation nor affect the shape of things to come. So I'll end my participation on this subject with this: I live 8 minutes from AP and am witness to the continued boom in housing development in the Northwest suburbs, and I still see plenty of undeveloped (cheaper than AP) land to work with. Plus there's the massive convention/hotel/restaurant complex being built just off the NW Tollway near Woodfield shopping mall and the local community's strong support for the track. Result - AP's potential "Biff and Buffie" fan base growing every day, and entertainment options required for thousands of new visitors and conventioneers. I could be wrong but I'm not too concerned that AP will be departing the Chicago racing scene in my lifetime. If it does, it will likely be the last to turn out the lights in this state. Lets alll enjoy our live racing wherever we prefer while it lasts.

Pete
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2006, 09:57:04 PM »

Yes Terry I do remember 10 years ago on the Derby Digest. You were bashing Dick as usual on everything from $3 beers to "spensive" turkey wraps, crowing about AP beiing closed, and Spt and Haw being the saviors of ILL racing.

Now you see, that's a lie, because when AP closed in 1997, I was the biggest defender on the Derby List. People like RunSuckerRun and beatledave and HV if he was there can probably remember the epic 1997 battles with Howard Dennis. It's only when goofballs like you came along in 1998 and 1999 and started whining about Hawthorne still being open, while Arlington was closed, like it was Hawthorne's fault for even existing and the horsemen having an alternative so there wasn't quite so much pressure on the Assembly to cave in to Dick's every whim, that I started defending Hawthorne.

Quote
Quit your weasel-mouth reconstructing of the past. If you aren't a lawyer you should be. I'm not going to respond to your BS about what I said and didn't say anymore

Because you're the one making up stories.
Report to moderator   Logged
laurajean
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 586




Ignore
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2006, 07:52:09 PM »

Some people are satisfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy.  

Pete    
Quote
Just a thought. I have eaten both at AP and Hawthorne. Nothing wrong with the food at AP. But if I were interested in a fine dining experience I would go to Hawthorne. Love the buffet, the only complant I have is the food is so good I tend to overeat. (especially the pastries) and I am too stuffed to properly pay attention to the races. 
I really like the salads they have on the grandstand side. Very fresh lots of good healthy ingredients and a nice variety. I really like the Turkey Cobb, but my next favorite has chicken and pecans and a really nice salad dressing.
just a few thoughts from one of the ilkettes of Hawthorne Roll Eyes
Report to moderator   Logged
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2006, 02:54:08 AM »

OK I have to chime in here a bit since I have always been painted as a total AP guy. The fact is that both tracks serve a purpose and cater to different demographics. Frankly I don't really care which track anyone likes just as long as they are going to one of them and betting. Isn't that the point anyway? Go where you like when you like and BET! There will always be AP supporters vs. Sportsthorne supporters and that I think is a good thing in the long run.

Neither track has a monopoly on doing things the best or the worst either. Both could take lessons from one another on what they do well and could learn from one another as to what they do poorly. I will say that should we ever get slots or added money into the purse structure do not be surprised if Sportsthorne ends up being sold. The further they get removed from the original family ties to the emotional attachment to the track and its history, the greater the chances are that money will speak louder then sentiment. AP being sold to CDI solidified the position at AP will most likely always be a race track. The same would happen if Sportsthorne is sold as well. What would really be nice would be no matter who owns Sportsthorne, it would be great to see them move it to a nicer location. Doing so would only help the entire racing situation here in northern Illinois.
Report to moderator   Logged
David
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 863




Ignore
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2006, 10:45:03 AM »

Well put by Jim C., each track has it's own place and idea, to further the food analogy - sometimes I'd rather go for a good burger and cold beer at a local place than go eat filet mignon at a fancy schmancy place.

I would point out about relocating Sportsthorne - the most likely relocation would be to an outer suburb - which might be better for racing - but not for the slots which would drive such a move.
Report to moderator   Logged
big wally
Guest

« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2006, 01:11:53 PM »

lll
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 07:03:28 AM by big wally » Report to moderator   Logged
TommyCh
Guest

« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2006, 02:48:31 PM »

Death, taxes, and Hawthorne v. Arlington. It's so nice to have things you can count on.
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Arlington Million
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy