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Author Topic: eric ledford  (Read 4906 times)
momo
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« on: May 16, 2008, 11:50:54 AM »

one word for this miscreant.......DONE
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trotter1
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 12:55:06 PM »

There are only TWO tracks in the US that will accept Eric Ledford back with open arms--he'll be back here soon--I guarantee it.   BALMORAL PARK and MAYWOOD PARK.  With what this racing office lets slide (see BILLY FARMER), hell, they'll probably have an 'Eric Ledford returns to
Chicago day' and have a bobblehead giveaway for him.

 thumbs down thumbs down
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 01:31:13 PM »

What new news?  Pork
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 02:33:17 PM »

The problem I have with Eric is that the time he WAS in Chicago, I thought he was BETTER than Tetrick (actually MUCH better). At some point, once he got really good and was putting Morgan and Magee to shame, he "seemed" to become FULL of himself. Almost like he could NOT give anybody the time of day anymore. This seemed to take less than a year after his arrival on the Chicago circuit. His Mom and Dad probably should take some of the credit for this also, BUT they are probably like that also.
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18g needle
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 09:55:12 PM »

His Mom and Dad probably should take some of the credit for this also, BUT they are probably like that also.
His dad would always carry a comb in his back pocket and slick his hair back about twice per race.
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looker
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 09:17:14 AM »

I guess he figured if he kept the focus on his hair people might not notice he is only 3 ft. tall!!
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2008, 01:40:08 PM »

Jokes about Ledford aside, if he isnt getting drives, what is wrong with that?
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »

He isn't getting drives because the Meadowlands has basically "threatened" the trainers so they don't use him.  This was told to me first hand.  Apparently the Big M management is not satisfied with their side of the deal - in other words, they're changing the rules.  The whole thing was bogus to begin with (bogus in that both Ledfords were charged), he plead to conspiracy, "served his time" but that's not enough.  Nat Varty & others were told by management to reconsider their choice of drivers when they put Ledford down to drive.

To Niatross Jumps, I have never found Seldon to be cocky in any way.  I know Eric appeared to have a chip on his shoulder, but he didn't get that from someone who worked for GM (a union man) for 30 years.  I doubt that he got that from his mother, who hated going to the track for fear of seeing an accident involving her son.

My personal opinion was & remains that their biggest mistake was pleading to lessor charges.  The state had no positives, no proof that anything was ever used on any horses & would never have made the case.
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 07:25:25 PM »

He isn't getting drives because the Meadowlands has basically "threatened" the trainers so they don't use him.  This was told to me first hand.  Apparently the Big M management is not satisfied with their side of the deal - in other words, they're changing the rules.  The whole thing was bogus to begin with (bogus in that both Ledfords were charged), he plead to conspiracy, "served his time" but that's not enough.  Nat Varty & others were told by management to reconsider their choice of drivers when they put Ledford down to drive.

To Niatross Jumps, I have never found Seldon to be cocky in any way.  I know Eric appeared to have a chip on his shoulder, but he didn't get that from someone who worked for GM (a union man) for 30 years.  I doubt that he got that from his mother, who hated going to the track for fear of seeing an accident involving her son.

My personal opinion was & remains that their biggest mistake was pleading to lessor charges.  The state had no positives, no proof that anything was ever used on any horses & would never have made the case.
They are about as innocent of the crimes they were charged with as OJ Simpson was on his charges.
By the way, I was told this first hand.
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HH
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 07:53:42 PM »

Dolfan, you are correct.  Trainers and owners were told to reconsider their choice of drivers.  Since he has his licence back, that is totally wrong.  It should be the trainer and owners decision.
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2008, 07:54:50 PM »

He isn't getting drives because the Meadowlands has basically "threatened" the trainers so they don't use him.  This was told to me first hand.  Apparently the Big M management is not satisfied with their side of the deal - in other words, they're changing the rules.  The whole thing was bogus to begin with (bogus in that both Ledfords were charged), he plead to conspiracy, "served his time" but that's not enough.  Nat Varty & others were told by management to reconsider their choice of drivers when they put Ledford down to drive.

To Niatross Jumps, I have never found Seldon to be cocky in any way.  I know Eric appeared to have a chip on his shoulder, but he didn't get that from someone who worked for GM (a union man) for 30 years.  I doubt that he got that from his mother, who hated going to the track for fear of seeing an accident involving her son.

My personal opinion was & remains that their biggest mistake was pleading to lessor charges.  The state had no positives, no proof that anything was ever used on any horses & would never have made the case.


Dolfan,

For the sake of the discussion, let us say that Ledford and the gang decided to fight it out in open court and they were all found innocent ... I dont mean not guilty but innocent. They walk out with a clear victory.

What would stop the Meadowlands from supposedly blacklisting him any way?

Herve Filion was never found guilty of one single thing related to racing and they still have him banned
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 10:20:10 PM »

He isn't getting drives because the Meadowlands has basically "threatened" the trainers so they don't use him.  This was told to me first hand.  Apparently the Big M management is not satisfied with their side of the deal - in other words, they're changing the rules.  The whole thing was bogus to begin with (bogus in that both Ledfords were charged), he plead to conspiracy, "served his time" but that's not enough.  Nat Varty & others were told by management to reconsider their choice of drivers when they put Ledford down to drive.

To Niatross Jumps, I have never found Seldon to be cocky in any way.  I know Eric appeared to have a chip on his shoulder, but he didn't get that from someone who worked for GM (a union man) for 30 years.  I doubt that he got that from his mother, who hated going to the track for fear of seeing an accident involving her son.

My personal opinion was & remains that their biggest mistake was pleading to lessor charges.  The state had no positives, no proof that anything was ever used on any horses & would never have made the case.

 They found lots of EPO and steroids illegally in the possession of stable employees. That was enough to convict Seldon, who as trainer of record for the stable is responsible. At trial, they also would have had eyewitness testimony that it was Eric who was the actual trainer of the horses, which presumably would have been enough to sustain the conspiracy charge.

PS...I can't say if the arm was put on any trainers or not, but I can say that you would be hard pressed to find many honest trainers here who would be willing to use Eric regardless. If they did, there would be owners leaving their stables by the dozen. After seeing Eric and Seldon stealing the money out of their pockets, believe me, not many people up here want anything to do with the Ledfords.
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 10:26:49 PM »


Dolfan,

For the sake of the discussion, let us say that Ledford and the gang decided to fight it out in open court and they were all found innocent ... I dont mean not guilty but innocent. They walk out with a clear victory.

What would stop the Meadowlands from supposedly blacklisting him any way?

Herve Filion was never found guilty of one single thing related to racing and they still have him banned

First, there is no such thing as being found innocent. If a jury comes to a verdict, the defendant is found either guilty or not guilty, there is no verdict of "innocent".

Herve has chosen not to apply for a license in NJ. If he were to apply, and NJ were to license him (admittedly a longshot), how would you suggest the Meadowlands, as a state owned track, would  be able to blacklist him. They haven't been able to bar any other licensee, except if they violated an agreement they had signed.
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 11:26:49 PM »

   The Ledfords got what they deserved.  To hell with the 2 of them SCUMBAGS they are just like the rest bust out losers.  McDonald's needs help Eric try the right way this time you piece of dog shit.
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2008, 07:12:12 AM »

Maybe, just maybe this is a simple situation where someone acts like they are bigger or better than the game and they laugh at you after they steal from you. Fate. karma, the racing gods, or just life in general, when you treat people like he did, things will catch up to you.
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2008, 07:33:16 AM »

First, there is no such thing as being found innocent. If a jury comes to a verdict, the defendant is found either guilty or not guilty, there is no verdict of "innocent".

Herve has chosen not to apply for a license in NJ. If he were to apply, and NJ were to license him (admittedly a longshot), how would you suggest the Meadowlands, as a state owned track, would  be able to blacklist him. They haven't been able to bar any other licensee, except if they violated an agreement they had signed.


Mr. Cocheran, forgive me for not knowing that the People's Republic of New Jersey has not adopted an "innocent" verdict. I had believed they had adpoted that to seperate it from a "not guilty" verdict to show the difference between a case not proven and a person not committing the crime.

Call it what you want, Herve is banned. Just because it isnt formally in writting doesnt mean he isnt banned.

The same for a blacklist aand Ledford. Yea the law says that if he has a license, they have to honor it but you know very well, off the record, the Meadowlands has told trainers and owners that life there will be a lot easier if Ledford doesnt drive their horses.
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2008, 07:33:57 AM »

one of the finer pleasures in life is watching another human being sink to the bottom of the ocean. hear's to you eric  ( as the momo hoists a ice cold heineken in the air)
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 10:41:43 AM »


Mr. Cocheran, forgive me for not knowing that the People's Republic of New Jersey has not adopted an "innocent" verdict. I had believed they had adpoted that to seperate it from a "not guilty" verdict to show the difference between a case not proven and a person not committing the crime.

Call it what you want, Herve is banned. Just because it isnt formally in writting doesnt mean he isnt banned.

The same for a blacklist aand Ledford. Yea the law says that if he has a license, they have to honor it but you know very well, off the record, the Meadowlands has told trainers and owners that life there will be a lot easier if Ledford doesnt drive their horses.

That would be the "People's Republic of The United States of America" that has not adopted your "innocent" verdict.
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2008, 10:54:34 AM »

BB in regards to this statement of yours...

Yea the law says that if he has a license, they have to honor it but you know very well, off the record, the Meadowlands has told trainers and owners that life there will be a lot easier if Ledford doesnt drive their horses.

You,of course, could be right. But I do not think that you are. First, I would THINK that it would be illegal for track mgt to sway an owner or trainers decisions on drivers, and to try to
force a driver out of work this way. I believe this would be collusion, but if I am not right then someone can correct me.

My thinking is that (hopefully) owners and trainers have made individual decisions not to use the guy based on:

A) the negative attention he brought to the sport

B) that they feel he STOLE money from other owners/trainers/drivers when driving horses from his barn/fathers barn.

C) that they have decided that his driving skills became more ordinary when he wasnt driving a juiced up horse.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2008, 11:52:53 AM »

Freelegged, that was just too naive to get into.

Momo, there is a post about "karma" on this thread.  I suggest you read it. 

Paul, how far do you think a conspiracy charge involving his father would have gone?  It's more than 2 years already.  But we both know how the other feels about this.  We need to just be satisfied that we agreed with eachother on another thread about something completely different.

BB, they definitely would have been found "not guilty" but they were guessing (with great legal advice) that this would have blown over & ultimately cost less due to the legal fees & the fact that NJ would have strung this out as long as possible.  They were told by counsel that Eric would be able to get licensed in other states (PA & NY), which I disagreed with.  But make no mistakes, he has definitely been blacklisted.
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2008, 12:09:14 PM »

Blacklisted? That's a good thing!
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2008, 12:21:08 PM »

BB in regards to this statement of yours...

Yea the law says that if he has a license, they have to honor it but you know very well, off the record, the Meadowlands has told trainers and owners that life there will be a lot easier if Ledford doesnt drive their horses.

You,of course, could be right. But I do not think that you are. First, I would THINK that it would be illegal for track mgt to sway an owner or trainers decisions on drivers, and to try to
force a driver out of work this way. I believe this would be collusion, but if I am not right then someone can correct me.

My thinking is that (hopefully) owners and trainers have made individual decisions not to use the guy based on:

A) the negative attention he brought to the sport

B) that they feel he STOLE money from other owners/trainers/drivers when driving horses from his barn/fathers barn.

C) that they have decided that his driving skills became more ordinary when he wasnt driving a juiced up horse.


Of course it would be collusion and illegal for track management to sway a trainer or owner into using or not using a driver and of course nobody from track management would dare put it in writing much less verbally suggest it to a trainer or owner.

That said though, the betting world knew what Eric Ledford did and it was an embarrassment to the Meadowlands each and every time Ledford put his ass into a sulky there. The Meadowlands did not want Ledford there by any stretch of the imagination but at the same time by law could not exclude him.

Ledford showed up and then disappeared again. While I would love to believe that harness racing trainers and owners were able to police themselves, we all know that isnt going to completely happen. People did use Ledford the second he came back despite what he did

Do you not think it is possible, if not probable that management indirectly and off the record spoke to third parties who are connected to the trainers and owners and suggested that by not using Ledford, that life would remain easier for them on the backstretch?
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2008, 12:22:44 PM »

That would be the "People's Republic of The United States of America" that has not adopted your "innocent" verdict.


Maybe you should come to work with me one day and read through some of the hundreds of civil written decisions that cross my desk where a Judge uses the word "innocent"
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2008, 12:31:44 PM »

Blacklisted? That's a good thing!

Unless of course, it happens to you.

What happened to all those posters who claimed that "if a man serves his time he deserves another chance" (see Walter Case as well as Eric Ledford).  Eric did his time - there's no disputing that.  I guess all those posters were full of  BSmeter.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2008, 12:36:23 PM »

I welcome Eric back to Chicago. As far as I'm concerned he can race here anytime. Good to see you are a forgiving and understanding individual "dolfan".
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2008, 12:36:33 PM »

Freelegged, that was just too naive to get into.

Momo, there is a post about "karma" on this thread.  I suggest you read it. 

Paul, how far do you think a conspiracy charge involving his father would have gone?  It's more than 2 years already.  But we both know how the other feels about this.  We need to just be satisfied that we agreed with eachother on another thread about something completely different.

BB, they definitely would have been found "not guilty" but they were guessing (with great legal advice) that this would have blown over & ultimately cost less due to the legal fees & the fact that NJ would have strung this out as long as possible.  They were told by counsel that Eric would be able to get licensed in other states (PA & NY), which I disagreed with.  But make no mistakes, he has definitely been blacklisted.


Dolfan,

I am not passing judgment one way or the other on the legal merrits of a possible guilt or aquittal of Ledford had his case gone to trial. He cut himself a very good deal under the circumstances.

All I am saying is that even if Ledford were to have gone to trial, been aquitted completely and had every jury member come out on the record and say the charges were a sham, I still believe racing, either officially through the commissions or the tracks individually, either through exclusion or an off the record suggestion, would have made sure Ledford was gone.

I go back to Herve Filion. They dropped the charges related to fixing races. It never went to trial. They got him on taxes only and New York was not going to let him back on the track. It was common knowledge here that the boys in the NYSRWB did not want him no matter what and got word to him that they would deny any application.

Forget giving him the license and then letting Yonkers Raceway or the individual tracks exclude him. They just got word to him that they would cut him off at the NYSRWB. Even after he served his time and he started to drive in Delaware and Pennsylvania and even after some sentiment started to grow for him when Monticello held their Legends Day, no Filion. Its common knowledge here now that they told Filion that he could reapply but they would drag out his application as long as they could and would drag out the hearing to make him relive everything and every suspicion.

He his banned except it is not on paper.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2008, 03:19:54 PM »

BB,

I agree with you on all of your points.  (This could only happen while leaving GG out of it!  Wink)

Do you think the same will happen with Case when it's his turn?
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2008, 03:27:45 PM »


Maybe you should come to work with me one day and read through some of the hundreds of civil written decisions that cross my desk where a Judge uses the word "innocent"

 I have no idea what you do for a living, but I was talking about the criminal case against the Ledfords. Last I checked there was no civil case. There was a negotiated administrative law settlement regarding their racing licenses.
 
Have you read any criminal cases coming across your desk where a verdict of "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty" has been returned? What is the legal standard for "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty"? I've never seen it.

Are you familiar with the difference in burden of proof for a criminal case... "beyond a reasonable" doubt" as opposed to a civil case...by the "preponderance of evidence"?   Do you know that someone acquitted of criminal charges can still be found liable in a civil case? (Just ask OJ Simpson about that.)
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2008, 05:43:48 PM »

I have no idea what you do for a living, but I was talking about the criminal case against the Ledfords. Last I checked there was no civil case. There was a negotiated administrative law settlement regarding their racing licenses.
 
Have you read any criminal cases coming across your desk where a verdict of "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty" has been returned? What is the legal standard for "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty"? I've never seen it.

Are you familiar with the difference in burden of proof for a criminal case... "beyond a reasonable" doubt" as opposed to a civil case...by the "preponderance of evidence"?   Do you know that someone acquitted of criminal charges can still be found liable in a civil case? (Just ask OJ Simpson about that.)


I am not a lawyer or paralegal but wont get into my job too much otherwise but I have seen the term "innocent" used in Civil Court written rulings, particularly in courts north of Westchester and cases before Arbitrator cases which can be appealed top Civil Court Judges. I have read Administrative Court Judge written decisions where the term "innocent" has been used.

We have seperated "innocent" and "not guilty" as "Not guilty" meaning the case wasnt proven and "Innocent" to be stronger in saying the person/corporation proved they didnt do what they are accused of.
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2008, 05:56:09 PM »

let's not forget that team ledford juiced up many horses that were part of other stables for the purpose of wagering. everyone knows that EL was the man behind the operation and not SL. and you know what, just because bad people are not found criminally guilty in a court of law does not mean they are innocent. team ledford consisted of truly bad people who inflicted untold pain and suffering upon owners, trainers, wagerers etc. the price they are paying can never be paid back. when the public court of justice has more then enough ethical/moral/factual evidence we have the absolute right to punish/persecute these criminals to the fullest extent of our laws.                           momo
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2008, 06:24:19 PM »


I am not a lawyer or paralegal but wont get into my job too much otherwise but I have seen the term "innocent" used in Civil Court written rulings, particularly in courts north of Westchester and cases before Arbitrator cases which can be appealed top Civil Court Judges. I have read Administrative Court Judge written decisions where the term "innocent" has been used.

We have seperated "innocent" and "not guilty" as "Not guilty" meaning the case wasnt proven and "Innocent" to be stronger in saying the person/corporation proved they didnt do what they are accused of.

Not to belabor the point, but once again, I am talking about criminal cases, not civil, and certainly not matters decided by arbitrators. By the way, a year or two ago The New York Times did a series of articles exposing the corrupt system of local magistrates who act as "judges" in upstate New York, despite their frequently having no legal training, and often a personal agenda that they pursue. They often ruled in ways that did not comply with federal and state laws, and often violated the constitutional rights of those who were unlucky enough to come before them. If you're relying on the rulings produced by that sort of "judge" you're doing yourself a disservice.

Obviously it is possible to essentially be proven "innocent" in very specific circumstances, but there are not three levels of criminal verdicts in the court system. It's not "guilty", "not guilty" or "innocent"...the latter does not exist.
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2008, 06:29:30 PM »

BB,

I agree with you on all of your points.  (This could only happen while leaving GG out of it!  Wink)

Do you think the same will happen with Case when it's his turn?


Dolfan,

I am a long time admitted fan and supporter of Case as a driver. So that said, my answer will come across as biased and tainted. However, that wont stop me from giving it any way.

In my honest opinion, I believe there are vast differences between Eric Ledford and Walter Case. I dont mind giving my opinion on it but I am not looking to turn this into a Ledford vs Case debate but there are differences to me. What I will say though should not at all be taken as me making an excuse for what Case did or justification for it. However:

1) Walter Case's crime had no direct connection to harness racing. You can argue indirect connection if you like but the actual crime itself was not done to harness racing. Eric Ledford's crimes were done directly to harness racing.

2) Walter Case had an unchecked, untreated drug/alcohol problem with what many believe was/is an unchecked, untreated compulsive behavior problem when he committed his crimes. In other words, Case was not sober and of sound mind or body. Ledford was stone cold sober throughout his entire event.

3) Eric Ledford directly cheated the sport, those in it and those who come out to support it. He ultimately took money from people in and around the sport that he wasnt otherwise entitled to or earned. For all the things Case did, he never used illegal drugs on horses and/or fixed races.

4) Yes, Eric Ledford served his criminal sentence but in my opinion, he did not serve any penance in the eyes of the sport. He did not work his way back. He did nothing to try to regain the trust of the sport again. The second he ended his sentence, basicly demanded his license back in New Jersey and wanted to drive at The Meadowlands like nothing happened. Well the people he cheated were those people he now wanted to go back up against. I believe people resented that. Now we dont know what Case will do when he is released but I hope he just doesnt try top kick the door down like Ledford did. I hope he shows humility and works his way back.

I believe the analogy is what Major League Baseball has with gambling and drugs. Using drugs is bad but gambling and cheating is cardinal sin
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2008, 07:21:11 PM »

Most of the horses Ledford were listed on were assigned by the judges as a direct result of the original listed driver opting off in favor of a different horse. 

Several owners were surprised when they opened the program and saw Ledford listed to drive their horse.  On more than one occasion late driver changes were made replacing Ledford with anyone else. Some of these owners were the very same people that lost purse money as a direct result of the antics of "Team Ledford."  How could they be expected to support Ledford? 

After complaints from owners about being "gifted" Ledford as a driver, the judges took the position that Ledford would only be listed if a trainer requested him.  He would no longer be assigned drives by the judges in the event a trainer failed to list a driver of their choice.

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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2008, 11:45:17 PM »

Most of the horses Ledford were listed on were assigned by the judges as a direct result of the original listed driver opting off in favor of a different horse. 

Several owners were surprised when they opened the program and saw Ledford listed to drive their horse.  On more than one occasion late driver changes were made replacing Ledford with anyone else. Some of these owners were the very same people that lost purse money as a direct result of the antics of "Team Ledford."  How could they be expected to support Ledford? 

After complaints from owners about being "gifted" Ledford as a driver, the judges took the position that Ledford would only be listed if a trainer requested him.  He would no longer be assigned drives by the judges in the event a trainer failed to list a driver of their choice.



I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from.  In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me!  No way, no how.  That's not the way it works.  That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.

BuffaloBoy,

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing.  We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track.  The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve.  Case was tossed around as well.  I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone.  Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances.  NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof.  But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof.  Nothing, no positives.  Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up".  We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it.  Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2008, 10:40:40 AM »

I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from.  In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me!  No way, no how.  That's not the way it works.  That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.



You are 100% wrong. That is exactly how it works. If a driver is listed on multiple horses, including yours, and picks a horse other than yours, and either you or your trainer do not call in by scratch/program time to check on the driver choices, a driver is assigned to your horse by either the judges or the race office, depending on the state. In NJ, the judges make the assignment. At the Chicago tracks I believe it is the race office.

If you (owner or trainer) wish to make a driver change after that time, you may do so, but you will be fined.
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2008, 11:11:00 AM »

http://
I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from.  In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me!  No way, no how.  That's not the way it works.  That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.

BuffaloBoy,

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing.  We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track.  The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve.  Case was tossed around as well.  I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone.  Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances.  NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof.  But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof.  Nothing, no positives.  Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up".  We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it.  Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...
Proof!  So you think the Ledfrauds just bought the drugs to have around in case one of them got cancer, had chemotherapy, and needed it to increase the marrow production of RBC's??  I was born at night- not last night.  Pork
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2008, 01:16:54 PM »

You are 100% wrong. That is exactly how it works. If a driver is listed on multiple horses, including yours, and picks a horse other than yours, and either you or your trainer do not call in by scratch/program time to check on the driver choices, a driver is assigned to your horse by either the judges or the race office, depending on the state. In NJ, the judges make the assignment. At the Chicago tracks I believe it is the race office.

If you (owner or trainer) wish to make a driver change after that time, you may do so, but you will be fined.


Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick?  If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

Never ever ever happened to me that way! 
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2008, 01:29:04 PM »

http://Proof!  So you think the Ledfrauds just bought the drugs to have around in case one of them got cancer, had chemotherapy, and needed it to increase the marrow production of RBC's??  I was born at night- not last night.  Pork

Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict.  Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served.  What you or I think doesn't matter.  My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything.  There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning.  So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2008, 02:49:41 PM »

Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick?  If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

Never ever ever happened to me that way! 

Nice job of trying to slither out of your reply to "bigapple."
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2008, 02:51:44 PM »

Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict.  Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served.  What you or I think doesn't matter.  My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything.  There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning.  So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.

Yes, proof is required for a guilty verdict, but proof does not require direct physical evidence. There are thousands of criminals languishing in jail thanks to convictions based on circumstantial evidence.
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« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2008, 04:49:49 PM »

http://
Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict.  Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served.  What you or I think doesn't matter.  My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything.  There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning.  So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.
If you are intelligent enough to write your own name, you know that the only reason a trainer or driver who really  is the trainer has drugs like that is to cheat.  Done.  Over and out.  Pork
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2008, 05:19:15 PM »

Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick?  If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

Never ever ever happened to me that way! 
Dolfan;
Allow me a little play by play.
10:00 AM Done Training. Check the overnight. My listed driver is down on only my horse in the first, and two three others later on. So I feel safe about a driver.
10:15 AM I jump on the tractor and head to the field to cut hay.
1:00 PM Back for lunch and check for messages.
  Hello this is Bob Larry at Maywood . It is 10:20  Dale just called in and took himself off all his drives. I need a driver by 11:00 Click.
I call at 1:15 and the race office is closed.
That is only one of several true life examples.
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« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2008, 05:28:47 PM »

Dolfan;
Allow me a little play by play.
10:00 AM Done Training. Check the overnight. My listed driver is down on only my horse in the first, and two three others later on. So I feel safe about a driver.
10:15 AM I jump on the tractor and head to the field to cut hay.
1:00 PM Back for lunch and check for messages.
  Hello this is Bob Larry at Maywood . It is 10:20  Dale just called in and took himself off all his drives. I need a driver by 11:00 Click.
I call at 1:15 and the race office is closed.
That is only one of several true life examples.


very well said
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« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2008, 06:19:37 PM »

Yes, proof is required for a guilty verdict, but proof does not require direct physical evidence. There are thousands of criminals languishing in jail thanks to convictions based on circumstantial evidence.

http://If you are intelligent enough to write your own name, you know that the only reason a trainer or driver who really  is the trainer has drugs like that is to cheat.  Done.  Over and out.  Pork

Guilty!  No questions asked.  Whatever the police says, its true.  Lynch him!  No proof necessary.  We have circumstantial evidence. 

Nice job of trying to slither out of your reply to "bigapple."

Read bigapple's post.  If you think that the judges were putting Ledford on while NOBODY wanted to use him you are as naive as Barack Obama.  And I don't slither.  You know Paul, you once called me a nasty name, then a "troublemaker" when I posted about Barn-To-Wire's association with Carmine Fusco.  Now you're saying I slither.  That's about enough from you!

To Looking In,

Thanks for the real-life example.  I just don't know anyone personally who has experienced this.  Nor have I ever heard an owner complain of this but maybe they do it differently at PPK.

I will however repeat - I know (first hand) of several trainers being "told" not to use Ledford by Meadowlands track mgt.  It would be counter-productive to then seat him on somebody's horse.
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« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2008, 06:31:05 PM »

dolfan..

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive  Cheesy

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

In all honesty, I hope he gets treated worse in the future.
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« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2008, 06:32:04 PM »


BuffaloBoy,

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing.  We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track.  The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve.  Case was tossed around as well.  I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone.  Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances.  NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof.  But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof.  Nothing, no positives.  Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up".  We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it.  Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...


Dolfan,

I know I will probably sound contradictory on Herve Filion but from my understanding of the charges against him back then was he was on tape talking about how to fix a race. In my opinion, since the race fixing charges were dropped before trial then that should have been the end of it as far as race fixing is concerned. I believe dropping charges before trial is just a slap in the face to a Prosecutor as to how bad their case is.

HOWEVER, for just even discussing how to fix a race such as he did, I would have had no problem at all with a six month suspension and large fine against Filion. I do not believe the tax charges should be addressed by harness racing.

I want to believe in second chances but in all honesty, had Filion been convicted of the race fixing, I would have to ban him for life.

Going back to their on-track rule breaking. In my opinion with Filion and Case, they paid their fines, served their days and cut their deals. They should have clean slates.

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« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2008, 06:34:53 PM »

dolfan..

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive  Cheesy

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

In all honesty, I hope he gets treated worse in the future.


Is it possible we can just get you and Dolfan to sit down and settle this feud?

I will buy large diet cokes for you both and splurge for the ice.
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« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2008, 06:41:00 PM »

i dont feud with anyone on here

except goodfella because that dude thinks i am cheap    Shocked
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« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2008, 06:51:28 PM »

dolfan..

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive  Cheesy

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

In all honesty, I hope he gets treated worse in the future.

I know that I have very little support on this subject which is why I usually comment.  I was treated so well by The Ledfords that I find it necessary to defend them - even if I stand alone.  You're all entitled to your opinions.  But I do not accept the word of the police, even though they themselves admitted that there was never any proof that any illegal drugs were used.  Proof is a biggie for me as I knew someone in NY who was convicted of a violent crime (raping a minor) that he did not commit.  After serving many years in prison, he was exonerated by his accuser, who was then an adult.  There was no way of ever recovering those lost years or wiping away the doubt that his friends & family had.

As for me, I've known so many people who have wronged others that I feel forgiveness for the large majority of them when they ask for forgiveness or pay their debt.  (I obviously don't feel that Eric Ledford owes anything else to anyone.)  If I am "crucified" for feeling this way, then so be it.


To Buffaloboy,

I agree with you on Case & Filion.  In Walter's "case", he needs to maintain status in a recovery program to qualify, IMO.  Oh and no real feuds with Freelegged.  Any opinions are acceptable to me if they are not malicious (NJ Horseman).


To Pork,

Go convict everyone who's accused of anything.  You just better hope it doesn't happen to you.
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« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2008, 06:57:26 PM »

Guilty!  No questions asked.  Whatever the police says, its true.  Lynch him!  No proof necessary.  We have circumstantial evidence. 

Read bigapple's post.  If you think that the judges were putting Ledford on while NOBODY wanted to use him you are as naive as Barack Obama.  And I don't slither.  You know Paul, you once called me a nasty name, then a "troublemaker" when I posted about Barn-To-Wire's association with Carmine Fusco.  Now you're saying I slither.  That's about enough from you!

To Looking In,

Thanks for the real-life example.  I just don't know anyone personally who has experienced this.  Nor have I ever heard an owner complain of this but maybe they do it differently at PPK.

I will however repeat - I know (first hand) of several trainers being "told" not to use Ledford by Meadowlands track mgt.  It would be counter-productive to then seat him on somebody's horse.


Dolfan:


 
I read what bigapple said and it is true. You would be very hard pressed to find an honest trainer or owner here who wants anything to do with Ledford, and that is why he wasn't getting drives. I'm sure that from your perch in FL you know a lot more about what is going on in NJ than those of us who are up here.  Grin

Apparently you don't understand the law. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable, and being convicted on circumstantial evidence is anything but a lynching.

By the way, I can't recall the Carmine Fusco comment. if you can find it I'll be happy to revisit it.

You have the typical wise-ass dismissive attitude of someone whose opinions simply run counter to the facts.
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2008, 07:13:57 PM »

Dolfan:


 
I read what bigapple said and it is true. You would be very hard pressed to find an honest trainer or owner here who wants anything to do with Ledford, and that is why he wasn't getting drives. I'm sure that from your perch in FL you know a lot more about what is going on in NJ than those of us who are up here.  Grin

Apparently you don't understand the law. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable, and being convicted on circumstantial evidence is anything but a lynching.

By the way, I can't recall the Carmine Fusco comment. if you can find it I'll be happy to revisit it.

You have the typical wise-ass dismissive attitude of someone whose opinions simply run counter to the facts.

Right back at you.  And don't think you specialize in "facts".  Now go convict someone.
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2008, 07:29:33 PM »

I know that I have very little support on this subject which is why I usually comment.  I was treated so well by The Ledfords that I find it necessary to defend them - even if I stand alone.  You're all entitled to your opinions.  But I do not accept the word of the police, even though they themselves admitted that there was never any proof that any illegal drugs were used.  Proof is a biggie for me as I knew someone in NY who was convicted of a violent crime (raping a minor) that he did not commit.  After serving many years in prison, he was exonerated by his accuser, who was then an adult.  There was no way of ever recovering those lost years or wiping away the doubt that his friends & family had.

As for me, I've known so many people who have wronged others that I feel forgiveness for the large majority of them when they ask for forgiveness or pay their debt.  (I obviously don't feel that Eric Ledford owes anything else to anyone.)  If I am "crucified" for feeling this way, then so be it.


To Buffaloboy,

I agree with you on Case & Filion.  In Walter's "case", he needs to maintain status in a recovery program to qualify, IMO.  Oh and no real feuds with Freelegged.  Any opinions are acceptable to me if they are not malicious (NJ Horseman).


To Pork,

Go convict everyone who's accused of anything.  You just better hope it doesn't happen to you.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dolfan-
You could claim a few horses out east and put Eric Ledford up to drive to "help him out".     If a drug dealer
in Chicago treated his people well.i.e--paid them well, bought them a new car, etc  with their "drug money"
they still deserve to be treated like drug dealers.

The Ledford's "stole" money with their doped up horses.   The drugs they used were ILLEGAL for equines.
The veterinarian who supplied all of their drugs had no possible reason for giving this drug to
Ledford/Daily.    They are very lucky they got off with the light sentence they did.    However, the real sentence
for Eric Ledford is being served by him every day--watching his former drivers make 300,000, 400,000, 500,000
600,000, 700,000 EACH YEAR and knowing it was all his if he didn't get so greedy.
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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2008, 07:43:58 PM »

Right back at you.  And don't think you specialize in "facts".  Now go convict someone.

I don't need to convict the Ledfords. They already are convicted felons.
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2008, 07:57:24 PM »

The drugs they used were ILLEGAL for equines.

The drugs they possessed.  "No proof of use" - the NJ State Police's words.  No positives.  Not even from the frozen blood.  Those are indisputable facts.
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2008, 08:01:08 PM »

i dont feud with anyone on here

except goodfella because that dude thinks i am cheap    Shocked
You're cheap and a "tough guy" as macdaddi put it. Angry
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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2008, 08:02:10 PM »

lol

macdaddi RULES!
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« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2008, 08:03:01 PM »

I don't expect to convince or even sway anyone.  I've had my say.  You all know where I stand - alone but content.  I will now bow out of this thread.  However I will not "slither" out of this thread!
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« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2008, 08:06:47 PM »

I do think there is something to be said for someone(you) who stands by someone(ledford)
that was good to you.
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« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2008, 08:07:19 PM »

I don't expect to convince or even sway anyone.  I've had my say.  You all know where I stand - alone but content.  I will now bow out of this thread.  However I will not "slither" out of this thread!
You're not alone.Nj and other jurisdictions pick and choose who they go after although I do think Eric went over board with whatever he was doing to help his horses but it sure wasn't epo.
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It's not too late to change the road you're on.
NIATROSS
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« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2008, 10:06:26 PM »


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dolfan-
You could claim a few horses out east and put Eric Ledford up to drive to "help him out".     If a drug dealer
in Chicago treated his people well.i.e--paid them well, bought them a new car, etc  with their "drug money"
they still deserve to be treated like drug dealers.

The Ledford's "stole" money with their doped up horses.   The drugs they used were ILLEGAL for equines.
The veterinarian who supplied all of their drugs had no possible reason for giving this drug to
Ledford/Daily.    They are very lucky they got off with the light sentence they did.    However, the real sentence
for Eric Ledford is being served by him every day--watching his former drivers make 300,000, 400,000, 500,000
600,000, 700,000 EACH YEAR and knowing it was all his if he didn't get so greedy.

Very well put trotter1 and I agree 1000%.

 thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
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pork
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« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2008, 10:25:51 PM »

http://
You're not alone.Nj and other jurisdictions pick and choose who they go after although I do think Eric went over board with whatever he was doing to help his horses but it sure wasn't epo.
Then why the Hell did they have it???It isn't cheap-not something one would purchase "just to have in case I need it" doh doh  Pork
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Buffaloboy
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« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2008, 10:33:26 PM »

i dont feud with anyone on here

except goodfella because that dude thinks i am cheap    Shocked


Frugal, not cheap.
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When will Barn To Wire finally do the right thing and ban Clockerterry & Edwarren for their continued lies, anti-American & anti-semetic statements and their general disrutpive stupidity? 

“The answer to a government that’s too big is to stop feeding its growth.” - President Ronald W. Reagan
Buffaloboy
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« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2008, 11:20:23 PM »

I know that I have very little support on this subject which is why I usually comment.  I was treated so well by The Ledfords that I find it necessary to defend them - even if I stand alone.  You're all entitled to your opinions.  But I do not accept the word of the police, even though they themselves admitted that there was never any proof that any illegal drugs were used.  Proof is a biggie for me as I knew someone in NY who was convicted of a violent crime (raping a minor) that he did not commit.  After serving many years in prison, he was exonerated by his accuser, who was then an adult.  There was no way of ever recovering those lost years or wiping away the doubt that his friends & family had.

As for me, I've known so many people who have wronged others that I feel forgiveness for the large majority of them when they ask for forgiveness or pay their debt.  (I obviously don't feel that Eric Ledford owes anything else to anyone.)  If I am "crucified" for feeling this way, then so be it.


To Buffaloboy,

I agree with you on Case & Filion.  In Walter's "case", he needs to maintain status in a recovery program to qualify, IMO.  Oh and no real feuds with Freelegged.  Any opinions are acceptable to me if they are not malicious (NJ Horseman).


To Pork,

Go convict everyone who's accused of anything.  You just better hope it doesn't happen to you.


Dolfan,

I can never say that innocent people have never been convicted of crimes but I dont get what you are trying to defend with Ledford. Please correct me if I am wrong but during the entire process, I dont remember Ledford claiming the evidence was planted or they were set-up. I havent heard Ledford proclaiming he was innocent. Whatever reason for that, I dont know.

I hate to say it this way but Ledford handled his return about as badly as possible. He needed to be contrite and it doesnt appear he was. He needed to ask for forgiveness and it doesnt appear he did. He needed to have a positive public relations spin and it doesnt appear he did. The perception I got was justthat he got done with his sentence and wanted to drive at the Meadowlands the next day.

I am all for forgiveness and second chances but after being involved in cheating, to whatever extent you wish to believe, you need to regain trust first. My impression is that he tried to bully his way back in. Ledford should have been out admitting he screwed up, offer the apologize, ask for the forgivenmess and saying he wanted to prove himself again.

It is very hard to want to support somebody like Ledford in his situation when he comes across as deserving things. He needed to take the route of working for a trainer and doing qualifying races for a time and came back gradually. Not make a splash. Ledford was not a sympathetic figure to begin with.

I know you and Freelegged are not really feuding. Any way, he fights dirty.
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When will Barn To Wire finally do the right thing and ban Clockerterry & Edwarren for their continued lies, anti-American & anti-semetic statements and their general disrutpive stupidity? 

“The answer to a government that’s too big is to stop feeding its growth.” - President Ronald W. Reagan
C10hitch
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« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2008, 08:53:06 AM »

http://Then why the Hell did they have it???It isn't cheap-not something one would purchase "just to have in case I need it" doh doh  Pork

I can vouch for the it's not cheap statement as I needed it a couple of times during my second go around with chemo. It was like $500 a pop.
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