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Poll
Question: If Barack Obama becomes the next president, what scares you the most?
I'll end up with a tax bill that makes my vet bill look reasonable - 17 (25.4%)
Iranians will be dancing in the streets when they have enough nukes to wipe out Europe & The America's - 12 (17.9%)
Terrorists won't even have to plan their attacks in Arabic, it'll be so easy - 13 (19.4%)
It doesn't matter to me, I'm moving to Canada - 6 (9%)
Nothing - I'm already broke & don't even know who's in this damn election - 19 (28.4%)
Total Voters: 52

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Author Topic: OT: Political thread  (Read 257694 times)
Buffaloboy
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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2008, 10:04:05 PM »

Oh and please ... before anybody finds the balls to attack Ronald Wilson Reagan's memory, how about we go back and test the memory of none other then Hillary Rodham Clinton  ... you know, the women who believes that a greeting ceremony with her daughter and the so-called comedian Sinbad was actually a deadly sniper attack or the same Hillary Rodham Clinton who says how she remembered how concerned she was for her daughter Chelsea who had to flea for her life during the 9/11 attacks ... when the girl wasnt even in Manhattan

Talk about memory loss.
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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2008, 10:27:20 PM »

Give up Moon. There is arguing with people incapable of reason. I may be overeducated, but that is better than being underinformed.

Do you support Obama?  If you do, please answer the aforementioned questions posed to Moon or any other "supporters" of Obama.  Please do not claim to support Obama if you are just Bush-bashing.  In order to really support a candidate, you must be able to describe why his policies will work.  I don't believe that he is capable of that so if you are, maybe you should be in the running.  If you're just voting for him because you don't like McCain, just say so - I'm certainly fine with that. 

By the way, you mentioned that you are overeducated - there's no such word as "underinformed".
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2008, 10:47:02 PM »

Why are voting for McCain, if you are so concerned about the economy. He admitted he didn't know anything about it. He says he's running on the "Stay in Iraq for 100 years" platform. Now, how do you reconcile THAT with any kind of fiscal responsibility??

He wants to stay there for 100 years - not fight for 100 years.  We have military bases in virtually every country that we've fought in - South Korea, Japan, Germany...

His administration will know plenty about economics.  Keep in mind that GW Bush is not the typical Republican.  While lowering taxes has proven to work historically, he has spent seriously more money than your typical Republican administration.  Obviously, the worst attack on US soil had something to do with it.  The administration's constant foreign affairs blunders have been very costly.  And of course, who trusts this administration?  Now I'm making the argument that McCain's administration will do fine economically, but I can easily argue that Obama's economic plan has absolutely no chance of success & the disaster will begin immediately on Wall Street, where every financial mind knows this.  (And by the way, I wouldn't at all be surprised if George Soros has a large portfolio of "puts" should his man be elected.)

I strongly feel that McCain can unite the citizens of the US & other countries better than any candidate straight from the get-go.  He has reached across the aisle on many occasions in his many years in the Senate.  He represents a strong military background with leadership at a time when military leadership is vital.  When things really fell apart for the current administration about 2 or 3 years ago, I thought that if there was an election in 2006, McCain would have won the presidency in a landslide.  Now don't get me wrong - I don't think he's perfect & he will certainly make mistakes.  But in general, he stands by his beliefs & can do the one thing that neither of the Democratic candidates can do - unite people.  He is the man.
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« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2008, 12:00:06 AM »

Wasn't that Vito Corleone? Grin
Michael
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« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2008, 12:25:46 AM »

I'd be interested in seeing the sourcing on these income-tax figures for the stated income levels. I'll trust that the RATE figures come from the various campaigns.

Also, your statement, in quotes, by "experts," that higher taxes on dividends and cap gains will crash the stock market and do nothing to reduce the deficit, should be sourced. That's unquantifiable conjecture, of course. Someone else, no doubt, has another unquantifiable conjecture.

I do worry about increases on dividend and cap-gains taxes. At a time when household savings are woefully low, and home values are shrinking, these taxes may be a poor way to raise revenue. But I ALSO know the value of a Roth IRA. Let's not pretend that long-term savers and investors will necessarily be savaged by a Democratic president.







 
info we all need to know…
  Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General election:
 
 
CAPITAL GAINS TAX
 
MCCAIN
15% (no change)
 
OBAMA
28%
 
CLINTON
24%
 
How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into  a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.
 
 
 
DIVIDEND TAX
 
MCCAIN
15% (no change)
 
OBAMA
39.6%
 
CLINTON
39.6%
 
How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama or Clinton become president. The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.'
 
 
 
INCOME TAX
 
MCCAIN
(no changes)
Single making 30K - tax $4,500 
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250
 
OBAMA
(reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400   
Single making 50K - tax $14,000   
Single making 75K - tax $23,250   
Married making 60K - tax $16,800   
Married making 75K - tax $21,000   
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 
 
CLINTON
(reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400   
Single making 50K - tax $14,000   
Single making 75K - tax $23,250   
Married making 60K - tax $16,800   
Married making 75K - tax $21,000   
Married making 125K - tax $38,750   
 
How does this affect you? No explanation needed. This is pretty straight forward.
 
 
 
INHERITANCE TAX
 
MCCAIN
0%
(No change, Bush repealed this tax)
 
OBAMA
keep the inheritance tax
 
CLINTON
keep the inheritance tax
How does this affect you? Many families have lost businesses, farms and ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax.
Those willing their assets to loved ones will not only lose them to these taxes.
 
 
 
 
NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY BOTH CLINTON AND OBAMA
* New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet
* New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already)
* New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity)
* New taxes on retirement accounts
and last but not least....
* New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries!!!

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Jeepers
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« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2008, 12:33:58 AM »

Moon....I always thought that Carter was a very weak President.  We should have invaded Iran back then...alot of the problems today would not exist if JC would have taken care of business back then.

We were lucky that the Greatest President in our time took Office Ronald Reagan after the worst one Carter.  Reagan destroyed Communism.  I think that he was by far the Greatest President Ever.

Bombing the Worlds trade Center was way different than what happened on GW's watch.  Invading Afganastan and Iraq were smart choices by GW.  I would invade Iran today if I had the power.  You should always hit your enemy first before they get the chance to hurt you.  Iran developing nuclear weapons scares me.  I wish that GW could be president for another 4 years....He is the best choice over Mccain and the Dems. 

Why, then, didn't Reagan invade Iran? Does that make him as faulty as Carter on this question?
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Jeepers
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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2008, 01:12:27 AM »

Those, then, are NOT federal taxes?

Lower-income people pay "zero taxes?" If your income is low enough, you don't pay federal income taxes. It has to be pretty low.

Anway, this isn't my understanding of the Obama loyalist, at least in the context of the primary election season.

I thought Hilllary had the struggling folk and unionists in HER camp (she's sure baiting them, anway). Obama skews black, and higher-income and more-educated Democrats.

Can't say how these groups may intersect in this region or that, but Obama is clearly the "limousine liberal."

As far as your quote of lower income taxes, lower-income earners pay zero taxes.  You will soon hear the same report as last year - that approximately 45% of all Americans do not pay any federal taxes, yet the large majority of those imbeciles think that they are paying too much in taxes.  They are of course, referring to Social Security & Medicare taxes but are too ignorant to know the difference.  This is the large majority of Obama's supporters. 

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Old and Slow
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« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2008, 05:12:18 AM »

Michael
Didn't Michael say "My father always told me, keep your friends close but your enemies closer" Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2008, 07:08:10 AM »

Didn't Michael say "My father always told me, keep your friends close but your enemies closer" Wink
I stand corrected.  maroon
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freak
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« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2008, 07:21:47 AM »

Do you support Obama?  If you do, please answer the aforementioned questions posed to Moon or any other "supporters" of Obama.  Please do not claim to support Obama if you are just Bush-bashing.  In order to really support a candidate, you must be able to describe why his policies will work.  I don't believe that he is capable of that so if you are, maybe you should be in the running.  If you're just voting for him because you don't like McCain, just say so - I'm certainly fine with that. 

By the way, you mentioned that you are overeducated - there's no such word as "underinformed".

I'm not an Obama fan either, as a matter of fact I don't like politicians at all. It just chaps me that people worship Reagan when the guy was a mumbling idiot by the time he was in his second term. He had to be coached to do simple tasks and didn't actually make any decisions that affected the country. Communism fell because of faulty economic strategy, and we are now using a faulty strategy to run our country into the dirt.

Sorry for not putting a space in under informed for you. I don't have an advanced degree in English, I study medicine. Maybe you should study math so you can tell me how increasing spending and cutting taxes pencils out. And for the record, I like to Bush-bash. He's an idiot who served in the reserves and has failed at everything he's done except rig elections and rely on his father's name. I like my leaders to have served active duty, like myself. My only problem with your guy this year is his insistence to back the moron in office now, and his misguided policy on Iraq during difficult times at home.
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Moon
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« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2008, 07:23:25 AM »

The 1987 recession barely met the minimum definition of a recession and was one of the shortest lived recessions ever and again when you look atthe entire period, it is the largest overall peacetime economic expansion ever.

If you remember, for every dollar in tax reduction that Reagan proposed, it was the Democratic controlled congress who passed over two dollars in spending.

Thos efree-spending Liberals dont get to spend the money had Reagans tax cuts not produced record setting revenue to the Federal Government.

It was much better then the Clinton recession as he left office

How do you explain the fact the George HW Bush didn't get re-elected because of the economy? Did Reagan's "great" economy jump over George HW Bush's administration and land on Clinton's? No, it didn't. The problem for George HW Bush was that Reagan burned through money like a bandit on the run - he ran up the deficit like no President before and HW had to pay for it. The next President will also have to pay for George W's deficit spending.

Free spending liberal? After the latest Bush administration?? - how many contracts did they give to one of their buddies on a no-bid basis? Billions and billions of dollars worth. With 6 years of complete GOP control in Congress and Senate, you couldn't stop spending. Tax and spend is a LOT BETTER than BORROW AND SPEND.

They sent $12 Billion in CASH to Iraq, bundled on huge pallets, and nobody knows where it went. Geez.

But, as is usual, blame everything on somebody else, NeoCons - take no responsibility for your actions.
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Moon
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« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2008, 07:30:42 AM »

He wants to stay there for 100 years - not fight for 100 years.  We have military bases in virtually every country that we've fought in - South Korea, Japan, Germany...

His administration will know plenty about economics.  Keep in mind that GW Bush is not the typical Republican.  While lowering taxes has proven to work historically, he has spent seriously more money than your typical Republican administration.  Obviously, the worst attack on US soil had something to do with it.  The administration's constant foreign affairs blunders have been very costly.  And of course, who trusts this administration?  Now I'm making the argument that McCain's administration will do fine economically, but I can easily argue that Obama's economic plan has absolutely no chance of success & the disaster will begin immediately on Wall Street, where every financial mind knows this.  (And by the way, I wouldn't at all be surprised if George Soros has a large portfolio of "puts" should his man be elected.)

I strongly feel that McCain can unite the citizens of the US & other countries better than any candidate straight from the get-go.  He has reached across the aisle on many occasions in his many years in the Senate.  He represents a strong military background with leadership at a time when military leadership is vital.  When things really fell apart for the current administration about 2 or 3 years ago, I thought that if there was an election in 2006, McCain would have won the presidency in a landslide.  Now don't get me wrong - I don't think he's perfect & he will certainly make mistakes.  But in general, he stands by his beliefs & can do the one thing that neither of the Democratic candidates can do - unite people.  He is the man.

Yes, but with Bush, we've been shown that if the President knows nothing about an issue, he can be manipulated into almost anything.

Yeah, McCain's a REAL uniter. "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb... Bomb, Bomb, Iran!" Diplomacy is his biggest skill Tongue

He can't even keep his temper on the Presidential trail.

I have to say, a strong military background would be a change of pace for your Republican heroes. George W Bush did everything he could to stay out of war, Reagan did everything he could to stay out of war.
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Old and Slow
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« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2008, 07:43:22 AM »

Yes, but with Bush, we've been shown that if the President knows nothing about an issue, he can be manipulated into almost anything.

Yeah, McCain's a REAL uniter. "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb... Bomb, Bomb, Iran!" Diplomacy is his biggest skill Tongue

He can't even keep his temper on the Presidential trail.

I have to say, a strong military background would be a change of pace for your Republican heroes. George W Bush did everything he could to stay out of war, Reagan did everything he could to stay out of war.

I forgot - what is the military background of Obama and Hillary?

The notion of a nuclear Iran should scare the hell out of all of us.  Diplomacy only works when there are rational people on both sides.  The radical Muslims or Islamists or whatever the hell they are called are harldy rational people. They just want us all dead.  Does this concern you?
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« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2008, 08:26:00 AM »

I forgot - what is the military background of Obama and Hillary?

The notion of a nuclear Iran should scare the hell out of all of us.  Diplomacy only works when there are rational people on both sides.  The radical Muslims or Islamists or whatever the hell they are called are harldy rational people. They just want us all dead.  Does this concern you?
Just for the record, could someone post a sound bite where Obama has referred to these murderers as "radical Islamists"? Didn't think so!!!
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freak
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« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2008, 08:50:36 AM »

You do realize that most of the world sees Republicans as radical Christians, right? Religion is a hot topic, just because someone is religious doesn't make them radical. There are some radicals over there, but there are some radicals over here as well.

I wish you guys would stop living in fear and start living your life. A few terrorists killed 3,500 of us so we killed 100,000 regular people living normal lives, who should be afraid?
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balmoral buddy
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« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2008, 09:10:26 AM »

Regarding raising income and inheritance taxes - here is a GREAT story ...
   A smart liberal girl was about to graduate from a liberal Ivy League College. She was always arguing with her conservative father who had worked hard, saved his money, thought the government took too much of his money, paid for his daughters college tuition out of his own funds, etc.
  This day they were arguing again. The daughter thought the income taxes and the inheritance tax should be raised as a method of redistributing the wealth - the taxes should be used to fund socialist programs for the poor, unemployed, and uneducated.
  The father asked his daughter how she was doing in school and what her grade point average was. She replied it was a perfect 4.0 and she was proud of how hard she had worked for it.
  The father then asked how her friend, Kathy, was doing in school. The daughter replied that she skipped classes, partied all night, didn't study, and barely had a 2.0 grade point average.
  The father then said "why don't you go to the dean's office and ask them to take one point off of your grade point average and give it to Kathy - then you would both have equal 3.0 averages?  That seems fair and an equal distribution of GPA's.
  The daughter started to protest loudly at her dad - "that isn't fair, I earned that GPA by hard work." But her dad had just walked away smiling.
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eljay
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« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2008, 09:15:27 AM »

You do realize that most of the world sees Republicans as radical Christians, right? Religion is a hot topic, just because someone is religious doesn't make them radical. There are some radicals over there, but there are some radicals over here as well.

I wish you guys would stop living in fear and start living your life. A few terrorists killed 3,500 of us so we killed 100,000 regular people living normal lives, who should be afraid?
I don't think it is a stretch to call someone who would strap a bomb to his child as an extremist.  I am just asking some Obama apologist to post the sound bite where he refers to Islamic extremists.  I don't believe you can do it, because I don't believe he has said it.
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« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2008, 09:20:44 AM »

Having Barack, Hillary or John as our next president will be 10 times better than having George W. Bush in the White House.  I know he's a "nice guy" but GW has caused more harm to our economy (who spends 1 TRILLION dollars on a "war" that cannot be won?) and our worldwide reputation.

Thank goodness his good ol' boys club will end in 9 months.   On a side note, when they build the Georgw W. Bush
Presidential Library (can't wait to hear Jay Leno's jokes about that funny idea).  Will it have at least one book in it?
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balmoral buddy
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« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2008, 09:25:22 AM »

I forgot - what is the military background of Obama and Hillary?

The notion of a nuclear Iran should scare the hell out of all of us.  Diplomacy only works when there are rational people on both sides.  The radical Muslims or Islamists or whatever the hell they are called are harldy rational people. They just want us all dead.  Does this concern you?

But O & S did you forget the great American President Billy, I mean Jimmy, Carter is going to go over there,  talk man to man with them and negotiate a war free, terrorist free world for all mankind for eternity....
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Moon
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« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2008, 09:27:46 AM »

I forgot - what is the military background of Obama and Hillary?

The notion of a nuclear Iran should scare the hell out of all of us.  Diplomacy only works when there are rational people on both sides.  The radical Muslims or Islamists or whatever the hell they are called are harldy rational people. They just want us all dead.  Does this concern you?

Your the one who wanted military background. I don't really care. I was just pointing out that some of your Hero Presidents didn't have any military background and did everything they could to make SURE they didn't see any actual military action.

Yeah, the Iranians are SOOOO much more dangerous than, say, Russia, or China, or the former Soviet Union. Grow a pair. Stop being afraid of every little dink thing. The only reason Iran wants nuclear is to protect itself from an invasion by us.
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Moon
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« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »

But O & S did you forget the great American President Billy, I mean Jimmy, Carter is going to go over there,  talk man to man with them and negotiate a war free, terrorist free world for all mankind for eternity....

Gee, that was hilarious. Is that the latest "joke" from Rush Limbaugh and you just HAD to share it with us, or did you think that up yourself?
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Dolfan
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« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2008, 09:32:23 AM »

You do realize that most of the world sees Republicans as radical Christians, right? Religion is a hot topic, just because someone is religious doesn't make them radical. There are some radicals over there, but there are some radicals over here as well.

I wish you guys would stop living in fear and start living your life. A few terrorists killed 3,500 of us so we killed 100,000 regular people living normal lives, who should be afraid?

I really don't care how the rest of the world sees us.  I'm not radical & I'm not Christian.  I'm a registered democrat because I opposed GW Bush in 2000 & 2004 & now.  I have no loyalties to a political party - only to my country, which is why I am voting for McCain.  If I were loyal to my party, I'd be ashamed of it.  I'm not racist either.  I am hoping that Colin Powell will be selected & accept a role as VP.  I think the world of him but he's been very embarrassed by the Bush administration & I don't think he will ever be anyone's pawn again.

And to answer your ridiculous statement of who "should" be afraid - Islamic radicals kill themselves - we value each human life.  I know, here it comes again - you're going to say that we kill more people militarily than anyone.  That is clearly not what we try to do.
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
Moon
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« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2008, 09:34:20 AM »

Regarding raising income and inheritance taxes - here is a GREAT story ...
   A smart liberal girl was about to graduate from a liberal Ivy League College. She was always arguing with her conservative father who had worked hard, saved his money, thought the government took too much of his money, paid for his daughters college tuition out of his own funds, etc.
  This day they were arguing again. The daughter thought the income taxes and the inheritance tax should be raised as a method of redistributing the wealth - the taxes should be used to fund socialist programs for the poor, unemployed, and uneducated.
  The father asked his daughter how she was doing in school and what her grade point average was. She replied it was a perfect 4.0 and she was proud of how hard she had worked for it.
  The father then asked how her friend, Kathy, was doing in school. The daughter replied that she skipped classes, partied all night, didn't study, and barely had a 2.0 grade point average.
  The father then said "why don't you go to the dean's office and ask them to take one point off of your grade point average and give it to Kathy - then you would both have equal 3.0 averages?  That seems fair and an equal distribution of GPA's.
  The daughter started to protest loudly at her dad - "that isn't fair, I earned that GPA by hard work." But her dad had just walked away smiling.

But the only problem with your story is that the money from that tax is not going to be used for social programs, it's going to be used for military expenditures and to pay off the war in Iraq and to pay off Reagan's and W's deficits.
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NIATROSS
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« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2008, 09:37:16 AM »

The only reason Iran wants nuclear is to protect itself from an invasion by us.

You of course know this as fact.
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Lockjaw
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« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2008, 09:41:13 AM »

Yesterday, I spent an hour and a half in the secretary of state's office trying to get two minutes of paperwork done.  The office opens at 11:00 on Wednesdays, and by 12:00 the tellers were taking their first round of breaks.  (The surly attitude of the tellers reminded me of the time before I started exclusively using the SAMs at the track.)  While sitting in those little school desks dutifully waiting my turn, a fellow detainee remarked to me, "So these are the people we want running our health care system?"  Almost next door was a Subway sandwich shop run by a minority family.  Despite a long line, I was in and out with my lunch in about ten minutes and felt generally appreciated as a customer.  What is scary to me?  Politicians serving up more and more government based "solutions" concocted by bureaucrats and academics who never have to pay the price of their failed policies.
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