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Author Topic: Today's Daily Debate Question for Wednesday, January 25th  (Read 1546 times)
John Doe
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« on: January 25, 2006, 12:51:59 PM »

     With so many suspensions being levied in the game today, one has to wonder about punishment options that might be handed down via the racing boards/commissions across the country. In earlier times, when somebody received a suspension, they were most likely called into the stewards office for a hearing, told of the bad news, and given 24-hours to vacate the premises. We all talk about the premise, "innocent until proven guilty," but are quick to form an opinion. Some people wish to invoke the appeals process that is available to all. Some of the unfortunate things about filing an appeal with any Administrative Agency are, the allowability of hearsay evidence being presented against the accused, the agency does not have to employ a fact finding pattern, and the time delays and restraints which are part of any process. What about if you are innocent, as in the case with the Merv Chupp lasix disaster in Illinois? In the criminal justice system, we are often reminded that it is better to let 100 criminals walk free, than convict 1 person who is innocent. This brings us to today's daily question:

          When a participant receives a suspension for any rule violation via the stewards and elects to use the appeals process, should they be allowed to participate in the sport until the governing agency conducts the appeals hearing and renders their decision?

     Let's hear some opinions on this one from people involved in the sport in any capacity. Enjoy the day, everyone.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 01:19:10 PM by JDakuras » Report to moderator   Logged

AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
burton
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2006, 01:17:02 PM »

Yes.
Innocent until proven guilty.
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DLeestable
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2006, 01:21:07 PM »

Absolutely,

   All you have to do is look at Merv Chupps positive and know sometimes they are wrong. If you prevent one person from losing tons of money by no fault of his own, then it is worth it.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2006, 01:36:30 PM »

I firmly believe that the protections afforded by our Constitution and Bill of Rights are what make us a great country. However, there are instances when the actions of a criminal are of such magnitude that he is incarcerated from the moment of arrest through the conclusion of his trial, even though he has not been convicted of a crime. If the crime was so heinous, or the risk of flight by the accused so great, he may be held with no bail, or at a bail set so high there is no reasonable chance of satisfying it.

I'm sure we all remember the OJ Simpson case. He was held without bail, and was not released from custody until found not guilty by a jury of his peers. (Please...I have no interest in debating whether he was innocent or guilty.)

Analogously, when a trainer is charged with extraordinarily serious violations, I believe it is within reason for the regulatory authorities or the courts to refuse a stay or TRO. For example, in NJ, the commission will grant a stay for almost any positive, up to and including a second "black box" violation. However, when a trainer crosses that line to a third black box positive, the commission has generally refused a stay of suspension, and the courts have upheld their right to do so. Thus the worst offenders are not permitted to practice their trade while appealing their suspension. I thoroughly agree with this approach.

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Paul B.
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2006, 01:37:16 PM »

this is a tuff queastion becauz what if the person really cheated and hit the horse with illegal substance? why let him cheat some more while he is waiting for his appeall. i do agree with u joe that everyone is innocents until prooven guilty in court. i say let them race until we no for sure someting happenedd. the racing board has to do a better job at this and keep up the good work joe becauz maybe somebody down there will read this and listen to you Huh.
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SUPERMAN
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2006, 02:08:33 PM »

Joe.  No way, ram that appeal up your ass. We all know that these trainers like rucker and darcy are juicing the horses up to cash tickets and screw the fans. Its not right for them to be able to continue on with defrauding the public out of there hard earned cash. Screw that. I dont believe that bullshit either about letting criminals go free just so one guy who is innocent can get off. I hope you are not trying to say that is what you are told at svcholl because then I call you a liar. Put the criminals in jail and suspend the cheating trainers for life and see what happens. stop sticking up for the criminals and there cheating ways Joe or you will end up helping all of them continue to ruin the game like they already have. Cram that appeal where the sun dont shine. Get the cheatin bastards out of the game for good without any lawyer like dakuras going to bat for them! thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down
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TC
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2006, 02:31:07 PM »

When a person is accused of doping horses, the 1st thing looked at should be his or her history in the sport.  If the person is a chronic abuser, then they shouldn't be allowed to race upon appeal.  If the person has a clean or relatively clean history, then an accommodation should be granted.  The Peelings and Daley's of the world should be considered the former here.  In the Merv Chupp Lasix case, the ORB and the stewards were negligent in failing to give Mr. Chupp a stay pending retesting of the sample in question.  Thank goodness Mr. Chupp got a retest or 2nd opinion and was subsequently exonerated.   trotter  TC
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 06:17:29 PM by TC » Report to moderator   Logged
dt2
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 03:15:54 PM »

TC AND NJ


GREAT POST! GREAT TOPIC FOR THAT MATTER!

I also agree with innocent until prov en guilty thing. But guy's like robinson, pelling,rucker etc, it should be guilty until prov en innocent!!!!-- NO APPEALS OR TRO'S.


I also think for anything that is a serious positive- 1st offense-- 5000 fine 365 day suspension 2nd offense 10,000 and 2 years, 3rd offense 25000 5 year. 4th --life!!!!!

 

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darth vader
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 06:21:02 PM »

NO  !!!!!!  BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE THERE HEARING WITHIN 3  DAYS AND IF FOUND INNOCENT THEN THEY SHOULD BE COMPENSATED FOR THERE TIME AND LOSS OF INCOME
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Fillmore Bear
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 06:27:47 PM »

FIFTH POSITIVE


            DEATH SENTENCE
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FIRST UP
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 07:00:32 PM »

Innocent til proven guilty. If not, the gestapo can mess with anyone they don't like, or who isn't in the "click".
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Fillmore Bear
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 07:04:31 PM »


     "CLIQUE"
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Kenneth J. Chadwick
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 07:17:00 PM »

INNOCENT

This country is built on laws. 

We do have due process.

All violations should be dealt with at the next meeting.


Kennerth J. Chadwick 
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It's a Wonderful Life, let's live every moment like its your last.
brenda
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 10:05:27 PM »

More misinformation. Joe maybe you should call Merv and here what really happened in his case.  Even when they are proven wrong you still pay the piper. I think people should be given the chance to prove they are inocent, but if they cant prove it, see ya!
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njhorseman
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 11:40:10 PM »

INNOCENT

This country is built on laws. 

We do have due process.

All violations should be dealt with at the next meeting.


Kennerth J. Chadwick 

I'm glad to see that someone has used the correct term, "due process," which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

It is not the same as the much overused, misused, and misunderstood "innocent until proven guilty," which technically only applies to a trial.

A fair trial by a jury of one's peers requires that the prosecution  prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Since a trial begins with the prosecution not having introduced any evidence, a defendant is obviously innocent, until proven guilty.
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John Doe
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2006, 12:33:51 AM »

I'm glad to see that someone has used the correct term, "due process," which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

It is not the same as the much overused, misused, and misunderstood "innocent until proven guilty," which technically only applies to a trial.

A fair trial by a jury of one's peers requires that the prosecution  prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Since a trial begins with the prosecution not having introduced any evidence, a defendant is obviously innocent, until proven guilty.



Paul:

     Great point about "due process" except you will see that administrative agencies have a mind and agenda of their own.  I can't begin to tell you how many times the IRB has violated somebody’s due process rights, only to have the person just go along with the program and not make any waves because of fear of retribution. It is extremely frustrating to see this time and time again.

     As I am sure you are well aware that when one's due process right is violated, it no longer becomes an IRB issue. That is why I despise Administrative Law so much I absolutely HATE IT!  It is nothing but bullshit when they allow every type of hearsay evidence in without having any fact-finding pattern whatsoever. Where else have you ever seen such injustice? 

     Paul, I don't know what the future holds for me, but please, promise me one thing; if I ever tell you that I want to practice Administrative Law, check me into a psych ward somewhere and make sure they never release me, and if they do, kick me in the head 3 times.

    I know you will probably agree with my professor in saying that administrative law is not that bad. Just do your homework at the hearing by making a record for use down the road when you get into court. The problem he does not understand is that the harness racing industry is not like some government job, where the accused can spend the money fighting the agency in front of an impartial judge.

     That is the problem I have with administrative law. Why should someone have to go through all of that because of some incompetent ***hole who decides to abuse their discretionary powers and suspend someone because of a personal vendetta they have against them?  This is just my personal opinion about the IRB and how Administrative Law relates to them. The unfortunate thing about this whole deal is that the IRB feels that they are above our Constitution and can do whatever they wish. It's a real shame is all I can say. Good night, I’m off to bed. Take care and we’ll chat in the morning.

Best Regards,
Joseph M. Dakuras
(A UNLV Runnin Rebel For Life)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 12:58:44 AM by JDakuras » Report to moderator   Logged

AND NOW, HERE ARE YOUR UNLV 1990 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS:
                       GREG ANTHONY
                       ANDERSON HUNT
                       MOSES SCURRY
                       STACEY AUGMON
                       LARRY JOHNSON
THE BEST COACH EVER, JERRY "TARK" TARKANIAN
THIS IS HEAVEN
race track phil
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2006, 01:27:08 AM »

             dont you think the term innocent till proven guilty depends on the evidence and crime . what if the person is caught in the act of the crime ? is he considered innocent till proven guilty ? what if its a career criminal that has a history of robbing people ? I dont think there innocent till proven guilty in the real world . I think your reputation should dictate how things are handled if you've been caught several times for drugging horses and have had several positives as so many of our famous trainers have had are we suppose to give them the benefit of doubt innocent till proven guilty ! a guy like merv chupp who has been clean should have been looked at differently . but these other repeat offenders should be kicked out of the game period . our sport needs a complete clean-up . seems like the same trainers through the years have gotten slaps on the wrist . how many positives did farrington ,anderson , and now rucker get ! they just kept on going like a timex watch . I dont have the answer , but something has to be done different for repeat offenders . if you get caught for speeding down the highway and get a ticket ! your not innocent till proven guilty ! your guilty and because the cop had you on radar there is'nt any innocents in the real world on situations like that ! so take those words that are so broad in meaning and use them properly , they do not apply to every situation in our society . and by the way when one of them hundred guys kills a member of your family or something you wont care about that one innocent guy in jail who always has a chance at freedom because he is innocent . keep the hundred locked up thats the only way our legal system works . sometimes there are mistakes and an innocent man goes to jail and its sad but it will always be that way . obviously the system is'nt perfect , but its all we have and the prisons are full with guilty people .                                 RTP                     
                                         
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Jeepers
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2006, 02:07:03 AM »

In a perfect world, medication violations (or charges thereof) would be so infrequent that the IRB and the judicial system would rarely have to intersect and cause this big clusterfuck.

Anyone make any money Wednesday night?
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Goliath
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2006, 02:51:25 AM »

 flag

You cannot pass sentence without the trial. You must let them continue to race until proven guilty. That being said, the appeal hearing should be conducted in a timely matter to keep further wrong doings from occuring. Don't let it drag on forever.
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