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Poll
Question: Lets say your in F.L your horse is in new york are you responsibile
Yes - 11 (44%)
No - 11 (44%)
Maybe - 3 (12%)
Total Voters: 18

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Author Topic: Horse Talk ' Owner Ship responsibility for a horse with a trainer Yes or No  (Read 6926 times)
Old and Slow
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2008, 09:31:56 PM »

I am a Hero member
Let me be the first to congratulate you! beer  Way to go!!
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I know one thing for sure.  Indecision may or may not be my problem.
njhorseman
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2008, 09:33:28 PM »

Iv thought about it and i came up with Hmmmmmmmmm lets try this STFU one more on ingore dam i hate doing that  trotter

Kind of proves my point, doesn't it.
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Tsunami
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2008, 10:47:49 PM »

Tsunami In my life a poster means nothing to me, what dose it mean if i guy post allot on a web site ? Take that chit to my face ill smack him like he is a elite azz hole, Means nothing to me when some one is just being mean. This internet is kool but its not my life, I have never heard of some one being a elite Poster sounds funny . Im sorry you talking to me im a elite Poster LOL LOL LOL thats funny as chit lol

Numbers mean nothing to me , trust and character do.

You raise some interesting thoughts;

1) If the posters mean nothing to you - who else would pay attention to the dribble you type?

2) I believe the internet life is all you have  JMO

3) Get a dictionary - you might be able to use some fancy words like Elite  Grin

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Dolfan
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« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2008, 12:11:16 AM »

I don't choose a trainer based on his batting average, but instead on whose philosophy is similar to mine. I believe you were blind-sided, but didn't his performance of dropping a life mark 3 or 4 seconds in a week give you a hint? If you looked at his batting average only, then yes I think you share some responsibility because it really shouldn't have caught you by surprise.

It's a tough issue. But without owner responsibility in some capacity there will only be the cheaters and the losers, and kill this business.

I am more hands on than you are. I know my horses, their personalities, attitudes, what they wear etc and I always keep their welfare in mind. I want them to have a full life after racing, not dropping dead on the track when they sludge from EPO or drown from a tubing gone bad, or so broken down that they go to the killers.

I do have a business and this is a hobby, but I wouldn't have fun if I felt like I left my morals at the door. 

I'm not trying to sound "holier than thou", because I'm sure you are a person of character, as are most on this forum.  I am saying that we as owners have to share in the responsibility or somehow drive the engine that begins the clean-up.

On the surface, it may appear to be a tough issue to some but not to me.  For me, it's pretty cut & dry. 

I've been studying harness racing for nearly 30 years (wow), since I was 14.  When I first considered buying claimers 5 years ago, I told my partner that I would only put up money if we could get the "best" trainer at the track.  Now, I've been lucky.  I've actually made money (not big, but we're ahead) on claimers, selecting them very carefully & patiently using all of the resources that I could find.  I've also made a couple of very nice friends in the process who I was able to trust with that financial risk.  Again, I know that I've been very lucky to have dealt with the people that I dealt with.  I also know that many in this forum resent that luck because it is so rare. 

As a businessman, I would never consider owning a racehorse if there was more than a financial risk.  I don't no how other owners figure to have any chance of breaking even if they do not use a top trainer.  It just doesn't compute to me.  So if your goal is to somehow find a way to make owners legally responsible, you have lost me completely in your argument. 

The bond idea offered here is very creative if you can find enough people with the money to post the bond to begin with.  But here, we would only be talking about trainers and this would never work at anything other than an "A" track because everybody is basically broke at the B & C tracks.  My experience talking to other owners leads me to be believe that most are not extremely wealthy & when they take a loss they do feel it, although it may not devastate them. 

And for Mercedes Man, I don't think that anyone on this forum is arguing that trainers / owners have to carry some type on Workers Comp insurance.  The regulations vary from state to state - for instance there is no WC in Texas (some Governor by the name of Bush did away with it) & the last governor of Florida tried to do away with WC (his name was also Bush) but failed.
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Dolfan
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« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2008, 12:15:59 AM »

You don't.
I do know that Marty Engel has never broken any of the rules under the jurisdiction of the state.

I never said or suggested that Engel broke any rules.  Read my post again.  It's pretty clear that I side with owners NOT sharing any responsibility other than the financial responsibility of being the cash cow!
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pacinfool
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« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2008, 01:18:40 AM »

On the surface, it may appear to be a tough issue to some but not to me.  For me, it's pretty cut & dry. 

I've been studying harness racing for nearly 30 years (wow), since I was 14.  When I first considered buying claimers 5 years ago, I told my partner that I would only put up money if we could get the "best" trainer at the track.  Now, I've been lucky.  I've actually made money (not big, but we're ahead) on claimers, selecting them very carefully & patiently using all of the resources that I could find.  I've also made a couple of very nice friends in the process who I was able to trust with that financial risk.  Again, I know that I've been very lucky to have dealt with the people that I dealt with.  I also know that many in this forum resent that luck because it is so rare. 

As a businessman, I would never consider owning a racehorse if there was more than a financial risk.  I don't no how other owners figure to have any chance of breaking even if they do not use a top trainer.  It just doesn't compute to me.  So if your goal is to somehow find a way to make owners legally responsible, you have lost me completely in your argument. 

The bond idea offered here is very creative if you can find enough people with the money to post the bond to begin with.  But here, we would only be talking about trainers and this would never work at anything other than an "A" track because everybody is basically broke at the B & C tracks.  My experience talking to other owners leads me to be believe that most are not extremely wealthy & when they take a loss they do feel it, although it may not devastate them. 

And for Mercedes Man, I don't think that anyone on this forum is arguing that trainers / owners have to carry some type on Workers Comp insurance.  The regulations vary from state to state - for instance there is no WC in Texas (some Governor by the name of Bush did away with it) & the last governor of Florida tried to do away with WC (his name was also Bush) but failed.

i know this thread kind of got off the track of what it was originally intended for.

as for how long people have been in the business ....hey i bet there are alot of people on this site have been around the business for a long time. of what degree they participate might be a different story.

as for me i have drove, still train, and own. it's 7 days a week....every week. i know who are the cheaters around the track and i could make money anytime i want....PERIOD !!!!! with cheap horses. it's easy....just go to them and make deals on training and give them the steeds. listen to that little devil on your shoulder that will say to go ahead and do it.... it's alright ....everyone is doing it. isn't that what the big owners do and claim ignorance if a trainer by some strange stroke of bad luck ....GETS CAUGHT.

yeah, that's what i want to do is go have them give my horses all the goodies which will make them go faster and win races. i can cash tickets. i don't have to be held accountable for my actions because i am only concerned with myself. my self absorbed ....SELF. that is where we are at today and why honest people are getting the shaft because nobody wants to step up and change the rules to level the playing field.

owners somehow have to be held accountable for the person they employ....period. you are not going to clean this business up waiting for DUE PROCESS to work. it has already been proved....IT DOESN'T WORK. they got caught and the cheaters are back training.....cheaters are back driving. WHERE IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WHO CHEAT?Huh?? there is none. WHY? status quo that's why. when all else fails people love.....not be held accountable for anything.  ignorance works and it that fails get a good attorney.

start fining owners. they will either have to find a reputable trainer or get out. either way it works better than the system in place at present.

suspend the horse that gets a positive from racing anywhere for a certain period of time depending on the crime and the amount of times it has happened...that will surely get the message across.

NO MESSAGE........NO CHANGE....................GAURANTEED
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NIPPER
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« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2008, 01:24:06 AM »

If a trainer get a positive everything on his/her stall app should get so many days like 30/60 depending on the class of the drug. It will clear up the hole sport. It will put alot of people out.
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Old and Slow
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« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2008, 08:39:30 AM »

On the surface, it may appear to be a tough issue to some but not to me.  For me, it's pretty cut & dry. 

I've been studying harness racing for nearly 30 years (wow), since I was 14.  When I first considered buying claimers 5 years ago, I told my partner that I would only put up money if we could get the "best" trainer at the track.  Now, I've been lucky.  I've actually made money (not big, but we're ahead) on claimers, selecting them very carefully & patiently using all of the resources that I could find.  I've also made a couple of very nice friends in the process who I was able to trust with that financial risk.  Again, I know that I've been very lucky to have dealt with the people that I dealt with.  I also know that many in this forum resent that luck because it is so rare. 

As a businessman, I would never consider owning a racehorse if there was more than a financial risk.  I don't no how other owners figure to have any chance of breaking even if they do not use a top trainer.  It just doesn't compute to me.  So if your goal is to somehow find a way to make owners legally responsible, you have lost me completely in your argument. 

The bond idea offered here is very creative if you can find enough people with the money to post the bond to begin with.  But here, we would only be talking about trainers and this would never work at anything other than an "A" track because everybody is basically broke at the B & C tracks.  My experience talking to other owners leads me to be believe that most are not extremely wealthy & when they take a loss they do feel it, although it may not devastate them. 

And for Mercedes Man, I don't think that anyone on this forum is arguing that trainers / owners have to carry some type on Workers Comp insurance.  The regulations vary from state to state - for instance there is no WC in Texas (some Governor by the name of Bush did away with it) & the last governor of Florida tried to do away with WC (his name was also Bush) but failed.
I will not indict all trainers; some of the "best" and "top" trainers are good horseman or have top stock.

But let's look at the "best" and "top" trainers in overnight races at any track. Would you agree that these trainers have a better-than-average chance of playing loose with the rules?  Why is it that so many of these trainers have served lengthy suspensions?

Your decision to only use the "best" trainer at the track, especially since you are a student of the game, indicates to me that you have little regard for the means, and are only concerned with the end. It's exactly that attitude that is ruining us.

In fact the more I contemplate your arguments the stronger I feel about owners being responsible.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Andy Griffith show, where in a conversation with Helen, Andy says "I trust you because you don't lie to me. I lie to you because you don't trust me."  A funny line but it applies here. I am willing to take an equity position in the responsibility for my horses because I trust my trainer - he doesn't lie to me.

On the other hand, you refuse ownership of any responsibility because you don't trust your trainer - he may be lying to you.

I wouldn't want any responsibility either if I had Rucker or Ledford as a trainer.

As a businessman, let me ask you a question. Do you consider your relationship with your trainers as employer/employee, one of agency or independent contractor?

An employer carries liability insurance that covers the actions of employees, because the employer is responsible for his employees.

In an agency relationship you grant a person the right to act on your behalf by representing you. This does not absolve you of responsibility. You are responsible for the actions of your agent: for example, if your trainer authorizes a vet to inject the hocks on your horse, you get the bill and are responsible for payment even though you didn't personally speak to the vet.

In a contractor relationship, you would have a bond or a Certificate of Insurance (or both) naming you as an additional insured. Why? Because you are still responsible and need the protection from a third party to make you whole in the event of a problem.

In virtually any business except ours you as an owner or employer are responsible for anything and everything. And maybe if it was the same as any other business we wouldn't be in world of hurt we're in.

See if this computes. Cheating is killing this game/business/sport. By you using "top" trainers that you are unwilling to stake your personal reputation and responsibility in only helps the cheating continue. Clearly you don't trust your trainer, that's why you don't want the risk. You don't want an honest trainer who is not "top" because you don't want to risk losing money. I don't see how you can have it both ways, if you have any measure of integrity.

Pacinfool, great post!  Doesn't take much luck to give it someone to gas it and go!
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pacinfool
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« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2008, 09:39:30 AM »

I will not indict all trainers; some of the "best" and "top" trainers are good horseman or have top stock.

But let's look at the "best" and "top" trainers in overnight races at any track. Would you agree that these trainers have a better-than-average chance of playing loose with the rules?  Why is it that so many of these trainers have served lengthy suspensions?

Your decision to only use the "best" trainer at the track, especially since you are a student of the game, indicates to me that you have little regard for the means, and are only concerned with the end. It's exactly that attitude that is ruining us.

In fact the more I contemplate your arguments the stronger I feel about owners being responsible.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Andy Griffith show, where in a conversation with Helen, Andy says "I trust you because you don't lie to me. I lie to you because you don't trust me."  A funny line but it applies here. I am willing to take an equity position in the responsibility for my horses because I trust my trainer - he doesn't lie to me.

On the other hand, you refuse ownership of any responsibility because you don't trust your trainer - he may be lying to you.

I wouldn't want any responsibility either if I had Rucker or Ledford as a trainer.

As a businessman, let me ask you a question. Do you consider your relationship with your trainers as employer/employee, one of agency or independent contractor?

An employer carries liability insurance that covers the actions of employees, because the employer is responsible for his employees.

In an agency relationship you grant a person the right to act on your behalf by representing you. This does not absolve you of responsibility. You are responsible for the actions of your agent: for example, if your trainer authorizes a vet to inject the hocks on your horse, you get the bill and are responsible for payment even though you didn't personally speak to the vet.

In a contractor relationship, you would have a bond or a Certificate of Insurance (or both) naming you as an additional insured. Why? Because you are still responsible and need the protection from a third party to make you whole in the event of a problem.

In virtually any business except ours you as an owner or employer are responsible for anything and everything. And maybe if it was the same as any other business we wouldn't be in world of hurt we're in.

See if this computes. Cheating is killing this game/business/sport. By you using "top" trainers that you are unwilling to stake your personal reputation and responsibility in only helps the cheating continue. Clearly you don't trust your trainer, that's why you don't want the risk. You don't want an honest trainer who is not "top" because you don't want to risk losing money. I don't see how you can have it both ways, if you have any measure of integrity.

Pacinfool, great post!  Doesn't take much luck to give it someone to gas it and go!


hey old and slow ....your post equally as good if not better. we as owners are responsible and should be so.

let's just take the old days when racing was good. an owner had one guy to go to. he was the driver and trainer. not like today...everyone is a specialist. i still maintain even though these catch drivers can drive i believe when they started coming on the scene it changed the business for the worse. just think about the bond a trainer/driver had with his or her horse. catch drivers ...NO BOND....don't care. purely detached from the horse. money is his sole concern. back then a driver/trainer had a better relationship with owners. no cell phones and people visited the track and actually came to see there INVESTMENT and their trainer.

and this thing about an owner being hundreds of miles away.....TOTALLY B.S.. a cheat is a cheat and it doesn't matter how far they are away from an owner....period. anyone who has spent 8, 10, 12, or more.... hours a day 7 days a week with these horses knows what the problems are with this business but, getting the right people to LISTEN is the problem. BIG MONEY rules the day. and i believe they don't want honesty and integrity. IT JUST ABOUT HE MONEY.

if the rules do change where the owner becomes more liable and suspending a horse for a positive...i think you will see more people become more involved and move from just owning to take a more active part in training. similiar to the way we alot of us entered in this business. it could be more grass roots and friendly again. OR MAYBE I AM JUST DREAMING   doh doh
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Dolfan
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« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2008, 10:47:45 AM »


let's just take the old days when racing was good. an owner had one guy to go to. he was the driver and trainer. not like today...everyone is a specialist.

and this thing about an owner being hundreds of miles away.....TOTALLY B.S.

if the rules do change where the owner becomes more liable and suspending a horse for a positive...i think you will see more people become more involved and move from just owning to take a more active part in training. similiar to the way we alot of us entered in this business. it could be more grass roots and friendly again. OR MAYBE I AM JUST DREAMING   doh doh

The driver & trainer: There are drivers who don't want there name anywhere near the trainer's name for the reasons that Eric Ledford now knows.

Being an owner hundreds of miles away is BS?  What does that mean?  I can tell you the thrills of winning from a thousand miles away were still there even if I had to watch on simulcast.  And don't tell me about policing my own trainer wherever he is - you're living in an unrealistic world.

For your last statement - totally 100% wrong!  It won't bring in more people, it will eliminate the casual fan who has enough money to invest "silently".  All it would leave is people like you who can do it all themselves.

As for one of your previous posts about betting, let me tell you one thing.  When you have a horse racing for a $31,000 purse, you don't need to bet - you've got enough on the line.  You leave those bets to collecting $2 here & there from friends, family members & co-workers who want to win with you!
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Dolfan
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« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2008, 11:12:59 AM »

I will not indict all trainers; some of the "best" and "top" trainers are good horseman or have top stock.

But let's look at the "best" and "top" trainers in overnight races at any track. Would you agree that these trainers have a better-than-average chance of playing loose with the rules? 

Your decision to only use the "best" trainer at the track, especially since you are a student of the game, indicates to me that you have little regard for the means, and are only concerned with the end. It's exactly that attitude that is ruining us.

In fact the more I contemplate your arguments the stronger I feel about owners being responsible.

In virtually any business except ours you as an owner or employer are responsible for anything and everything. And maybe if it was the same as any other business we wouldn't be in world of hurt we're in.

Pacinfool, great post!  Doesn't take much luck to give it someone to gas it and go!


The top trainers also classify their horses properly which is what many of the lower % trainers do not do.  They, along with their owners, are afraid to lose their precious stock, which represents the low % trainer's living.  And I understand that, although I disagree with it. 

My decision to use "the best" is only logical to me.  I've worked hard for my money and you're damn right, I'm not looking to lose $20,000 or $30,000 in a few months on a bad trainer.  I see low % trainers making big mistakes nightly just by reading the program - poorly classified, bad driver (the trainer who drives at 4% drives too!), they claim from the top trainer...  Sometimes, it just logic that makes sound business decisions.

Now I do agree that this is a very unique business in that the owner's responsibility begins with paying the bills & pretty much ends with paying insurance.  But lets think about it reasonably.  Since the trainer trains for many owners, hires their own help, uses their choice of vets (in general), and the owner is not there 24 hours a day, who SHOULD be held responsible?  Do you want to make it impossible for business people to own?  And if so, then you must think that that's the way this business goes forward.  I say the business dies quickly if that happens. 

And how about T-breds?  Arab shieks are sinking millions of dollars into horses that never even make it to the track.  According to you, make them responsible too.  I'm sure the breeders will be thrilled to see that money go away.  But, hey - screw it, why should we get back some of that oil money.  No, let's get rid of those investors because as your buddy pacin' fool said, ownership from hundreds(?) of miles away is BS.

So you guys are going to find a whole new type of owner.  And while thats going on, the breeding farms will have to let go of 95% of their workers, sell 95% of their land or close down because there will be a new breed of owner.  One who has little money & lots of time on their hands.  Now that sounds like a great new start that'll turn harness racing around!

Good luck.
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MercedesMan
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« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2008, 11:27:16 AM »

Dalfan,classifing their horses is the best Prerace in the world most races are won by the stroke of the pen.. trotter
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Dolfan
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« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2008, 11:30:48 AM »

And after the stroke of the pen, the draw!
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MercedesMan
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« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2008, 11:55:43 AM »

If your horse is in where he belongs the draw don't matter in my eyes.  trotter
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njhorseman
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« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2008, 02:19:42 PM »

The 8 hole (or even just an outside post) on a half mile track certainly can make a difference.
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MercedesMan
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« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2008, 02:38:31 PM »

In My eyes if your horse go's off every week at 10 to one or higher your in the wrong class alot of class's get a few drop downs and raise your odds but in the clam ranks odds tell all. If your in the right class even the 8 hole wont hurt you to the point you don't get money. Ever here the saying " He is jamn him every week and taken all the money " I have seen people clam horse's just to get em out of the class. The stroke of the pen is the best prerace on earth no matter what track you on.  trotter
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Dolfan
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« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2008, 03:58:41 PM »

In My eyes if your horse go's off every week at 10 to one or higher your in the wrong class alot of class's get a few drop downs and raise your odds but in the clam ranks odds tell all. If your in the right class even the 8 hole wont hurt you to the point you don't get money. Ever here the saying " He is jamn him every week and taken all the money " I have seen people clam horse's just to get em out of the class. The stroke of the pen is the best prerace on earth no matter what track you on.  trotter

You are 100% correct.  One of the first things that a very smart horseman told me was exactly that - if you race in claimers & you're always higher than 10-1, you're in the wrong class.  I use that strategy now when I'm handicapping as well.  And you NEVER see consistent 10-1's in claimers from top trainers at any track. 
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« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2008, 04:02:58 PM »

The 8 hole (or even just an outside post) on a half mile track certainly can make a difference.

Absolutely.  At Maywood & Freehold especially, many competitive races are won at the draw.  Even when you have a solid speed horse, if you can't control the race, your chances are much slimmer.
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« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2008, 06:23:32 PM »

well. i guess dolfan you win. you are much superior in your argument about this subject. although, you definitely quoted me out of context. i said a trainer being hundreds of miles away is b.s  but, i went on to say he doesn't have to be right around the corner to be a cheater. I WAS NOT IMPLYING IT IS WRONG TO RACE A HORSE HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY...duh. and i also went on to say a cheat is a cheat...period. no matter WHERE THEY ARE RACING. that's what i said. it is irrelevant where they want to race there horse. that is there prerogative.
you mention these 31,000 purses....lol lol lol. name me one track "WITHOUT" SLOT REVENUE WOULD BE ABLE TO AFFORD 31,000 DOLLAR PURSES?Huh that track has to be in the UNITED STATES  ( by the way )!!!! slot revenue is welfare for harness racing because we are no longer able to sustain crowds, bettors and even fans.    why is that???  you seem to have a handle on things. once corporate has had enough of carrying a dying industry by injecting money in an unprofitable business it is over. and what does this have to do with the discussion? i guess it is about the public who no longer like our business.... and the icons are gone and so went integrity. yeah, i am saying trainers no longer worry about crossing a line....anything goes today. give a horse gun powder, hydrogen peroxide , and clorox...who cares. IT WILL LIGHT THEM UP. it is only about the bottom line....right???
WHEN..... not if they pull slot revenue from these tracks because they don't have enough revenue to pay the overhead not EVEN COUNTING PURSE MONEY this business will die anyway because nobody gambles on our product anymore.
if we are to let the trainer be solely responsible for everything....then how many trainers have received multiple positives over the last...say 10 years and what has happened to these individuals....nothing. they get a good attorney and get a stay...and then appeal and a small fine and back to business as usual. MAYBE EVEN RACE UNDER A PAPER TRAINER. or am I WRONG Huh? and by the way the TRAINER will stick it to the owner somehow or someway to recoup their attorney fees when they bill them over the coarse of the year.
what you are suggesting.... is let everything go on as normal Huh? yes or no
let the governing bodies do their jobs.... like now and see where things go?Huh is that what you are saying Huh
i would like to get input on what should be done if anything?? and if you have any ideas you would like to share could you keep it confined to standardbred racing and not throw arab sheiks and other breeds in the mix of metaphors.
by the way do you believe there should be one set of rules ( and when i say rules i mean everything including medication ) governing all harness racing across the country Huh
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MercedesMan
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« Reply #69 on: February 09, 2008, 06:47:01 PM »

Dolfan, i have been racing a long time i have been told by many that if they pick my brain it would shock some of what comes out about harnessracing.  trotter
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« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2008, 08:01:31 AM »

Do you want to make it impossible for business people to own?  And if so, then you must think that that's the way this business goes forward.  I say the business dies quickly if that happens. 

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So you guys are going to find a whole new type of owner.  And while thats going on, the breeding farms will have to let go of 95% of their workers, sell 95% of their land or close down because there will be a new breed of owner.  One who has little money & lots of time on their hands.  Now that sounds like a great new start that'll turn harness racing around!

Good luck.
No, I want to make it possible for more business people to own. First we have to shake our piss-poor reputation. That starts with a level playing field. I think we both want that. If I am understanding you correctly, you want the State regulatory bodies to do it. Fine in theory, if it worked that way I'd be all over it. But they are not doing the job. Somebody has to take the initiative to get the job done.  Why not owners, we have the most at stake.

Let's use Rucker and Engel as examples. If Engel faced the same fine as Rucker, and his ALL his horses had to serve the same number of days as Rucker, would he look the other way as he does now? Would he change trainers? Or would he lay down the law to Rucker that loading them up is no longer acceptable.  My guess is it would be one of the latter two choices.  Viola! A far more level playing field.

I am a breeder as well, not only for my own racing but for sale at select sales, so yes I am concerned about attracting owners with very deep pockets. Changing our reputation is the start to that. Remove the perception that we are a rigged game. I think that's one reason the filthy rich Arabs are into tbreds (big purses are another Cheesy) but they have a better reputation than we do, even though they're no different than we are.

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« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2008, 10:55:01 AM »

No, I want to make it possible for more business people to own. First we have to shake our piss-poor reputation. That starts with a level playing field. I think we both want that. If I am understanding you correctly, you want the State regulatory bodies to do it. Fine in theory, if it worked that way I'd be all over it. But they are not doing the job. Somebody has to take the initiative to get the job done.  Why not owners, we have the most at stake.

Let's use Rucker and Engel as examples. If Engel faced the same fine as Rucker, and his ALL his horses had to serve the same number of days as Rucker, would he look the other way as he does now? Would he change trainers? Or would he lay down the law to Rucker that loading them up is no longer acceptable.  My guess is it would be one of the latter two choices.  Viola! A far more level playing field.

I am a breeder as well, not only for my own racing but for sale at select sales, so yes I am concerned about attracting owners with very deep pockets. Changing our reputation is the start to that. Remove the perception that we are a rigged game. I think that's one reason the filthy rich Arabs are into tbreds (big purses are another Cheesy) but they have a better reputation than we do, even though they're no different than we are.



The T-breds are no different than we are?  C'mon.  There's much more money there, which means there's much more cheating!  They just don't advertise that they've caught a "crook", because they have half a brain.  There are far too many perception problems that harness racing faces.  Think about the NFL - a team owner, coach or member is fined heavily for questioning a referee's call.  Why?  Because it is then perceived by the fans that the refs purposely called unfair penalties against one of the teams, possibly for gambling purposes.  (That only happens in the NBA.)  What does harness racing do?  "NJ Police caught a big fish!..."  Just plain stupid.  Nobody reading the articles says "they're cleaning up their sport", they say "see, I told you it was fixed".

Think of this: If you're watching your first harness race & they line up for more than 1/2 a mile, the first thing you're thinking is "this is rigged" or "this is boring" or "this just sucks - I bet the 8!", not understanding why we race like we do to begin with.  It takes a little time to understand.  The only chance you have at catching a new fan is with top drivers & competitive horses making the races interesting the whole way around.  I'm just saying, capturing the newbie is a very difficult thing to begin with.  Perception means so much. 

Next problem: Tracks with slots now have the opportunity to attract new fans.  It just makes sense that if there are more people on-site, then at least some could be converted.  So what do the tracks do?  Make a separate entrance into the casino, so the slot-bettor can come & go without even knowing that there are races gong on.  Now how dumb is that?

How do you get people interested or excited without laying out a whole lot of money?  How about free tours to the barns & backstretch.  Lets show 20 or 30 people a night what it looks like behind the scenes.  Let them talk to a trainer or two, see & touch the racehorses themselves - get them interested in it.  What about the starter's car?  If you've ever ridden, you'd know that there are 2 vacant seats every race.  Have a drawing for 2 people to ride each race, each night.  On a 12 race card, 5 nights a week, you have the potential of showing 120 people a different side of the sport - an impressive one, at that.  (By the way, if you've never done this, it is awesome!).  And you know how much this costs?  Zero!  I've made this suggestion to the USTA & you know how they responded?  Nothing.  Zero.

These are just a couple of ideas.  We have bad racetrack management.  Bad GM's, bad publicity people and straight on down the line.

If you guys think that we can change the perception of this sport by pissing off silent owners, I just think you're totally wrong.  It would take many many many years to change perception, anyway.  And in the end, you'll still have cheaters that'll find their way around testing & the first time that you splash that in the newspaper, all of your hard work will be forgotten.

And I think we should stop using Rucker & Engel as examples.  If you're so upset about Rucker, lobby for the penalties of positives to be severely increased.  Engel (and trust me, I wouldn't know him if I tripped over him) has committed no crime & sending his money & spirit away from the sport is not the answer.  Maybe you would like to get rid of Scharf too & send his money away.  How about George Foreman or Wayne Chrebet?

Pacin' fool, you have to be satisfied now - a whole post without shieks! maroon
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« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2008, 11:06:09 AM »


what you are suggesting.... is let everything go on as normal Huh? yes or no
let the governing bodies do their jobs.... like now and see where things go?Huh is that what you are saying Huh
i would like to get input on what should be done if anything?? and if you have any ideas you would like to share could you keep it confined to standardbred racing and not throw arab sheiks and other breeds in the mix of metaphors.
by the way do you believe there should be one set of rules ( and when i say rules i mean everything including medication ) governing all harness racing across the country Huh


I've tried to address some of your points in my response to Old & Slow but just for the record I have never said that things are going swimmingly.  I just have a different point of view of how we need to go about repairing this broken-down jalopy.  And of course, there should be one set of rules, we should have a level playing field.  But I am always concerned about the buddy system.  Testing means everything because that's the only way to prove something & until we come up with all of the testing that we need, we're not going to be able to solve the doping problems.

The one thing that I am totally against is picking on one guy and saying "there's the guilty ONE".  There's no such thing as only one guy being guilty.  If one trainer is using than another one is too.  And another.  And another...

And who else have they "caught" since the Ledford arrest?

There - another post without shieks!  Are you keeping track of these?
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We can produce more wealth, but we cannot produce more time.  When we give someone our time, we actually give a portion of our life that we will never get back.
Tsunami
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« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »

Dolfan, i have been racing a long time i have been told by many that if they pick my brain it would shock some of what comes out about harnessracing.  trotter

Question is .......... would they understand it  Huh

P.S You lumped too many scenario's into one vote
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 04:48:35 PM by Tsunami » Report to moderator   Logged
MercedesMan
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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2008, 05:57:25 PM »

Tsunami ,What ever you man , You know best good job.  trotter
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