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Author Topic: ROBIN  (Read 5825 times)
TC
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« on: October 31, 2005, 09:10:54 AM »

I would like to know everyone's (clean) opinion of Odds On Racing and its point person.  I'm kicking things off with the "Rome wasn't built in a day speech" followed by the fact that quick buck artists come and go, with their trunks full of tubing kits, sodium bicarbonate jugs, and "black tackle boxes", but you have to be patient with speculative frosh/sophs, and must have a solid business plan to race on a continental scale.  While Odds On Racing hasn't yet achieved unbridled success, a la Anderson Raing in the mid '90s, all the infrastructure is there to start raising champions in multitude.  Perhaps some of her help like Ms. Erickson or someone can comment on operations at the farm.  If you take an opposing view, all I ask is you clarify and qualify your remarks.  TC
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njhorseman
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 12:22:40 PM »

TC:
Earlier this year, I crunched a few numbers for their yearling purchases. I can't find them right now, but suffice it say the results were frighteningly bad. In total, the horses they bought at the sales had only earned back a fraction of their purchase price (including ones that already were 4 and in their third year of racing). Add in training costs, stakes payments and a couple of million in capital expenditures to build the farm, and you're talking major financial disaster. Is it a surprise that they totally disappeared from the yearling market last year? My guess is you won't be seeing much of them at Harrisburg over the next week, either. Dana Parham could have gotten a better ROI by putting all his cash in a bank that was going to get knocked over by Willie Sutton ten minutes after he made the deposit.

Also having seen the results (or lack there of) of Robin's racing at the Meadowlands, my only possible conclusion is that this could be the worst large scale operation in the history of harness racing. She must be totally clueless either as a trainer, stable manager, or both.
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sn
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 12:33:54 PM »

Paul you are wrong once again!!! Robin has already been on a buying spree at Hanover and Perretti farms and will be at Harrisburg in a couple weeks with "Guns" Blazin!!!!
You are forgeting money is no object!!! its all about fun fun fun!!!!
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njhorseman
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 12:41:02 PM »

Paul you are wrong once again!!! Robin has already been on a buying spree at Hanover and Perretti farms and will be at Harrisburg in a couple weeks with "Guns" Blazin!!!!
You are forgeting money is no object!!! its all about fun fun fun!!!!

Since Hanover sells all its yearlings at the various auctions (the majority at Harrisbug), I doubt she's been on a buying spree there. If she shows up in a couple of weeks it will be too late, because the sale starts a week from today.  Wink
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 12:46:00 PM »

TC:
Earlier this year, I crunched a few numbers for their yearling purchases. I can't find them right now, but suffice it say the results were frighteningly bad. In total, the horses they bought at the sales had only earned back a fraction of their purchase price (including ones that already were 4 and in their third year of racing). Add in training costs, stakes payments and a couple of million in capital expenditures to build the farm, and you're talking major financial disaster. Is it a surprise that they totally disappeared from the yearling market last year? My guess is you won't be seeing much of them at Harrisburg over the next week, either. Dana Parham could have gotten a better ROI by putting all his cash in a bank that was going to get knocked over by Willie Sutton ten minutes after he made the deposit.

Also having seen the results (or lack there of) of Robin's racing at the Meadowlands, my only possible conclusion is that this could be the worst large scale operation in the history of harness racing. She must be totally clueless either as a trainer, stable manager, or both.

The last big yearling crop they purchased (now 3), was approximately $1.1MM.  Outside of Odds On Duane, who was second in the Hoosier Cup -- I don't really think they made any waves.

They had a couple good older horses (from yearlings sales), that probably encouraged Parham to take the dive...suffice it to say they've yet to find another Odds On Charmaine, Odds On Dana (who will now stand stud in IL), or Odds On Michelle.

Odds On seems to do much better at the claiming game, excellent in fact.  They seemed to be going for broke on this whole breeding operation, and I think they may have succeeded.  In order to get back, all they can hope for is that some of those $100k yearlings can produce some most amazing progeny.

Now, as far as the people and the facility -- top notch.  Had the pleasure of touring the place, and all I can say is: wow.  They seem to want to do it "right" there, and the people and facility are great.  Additionally, Robin is a very knowledgeable and friendly person.  I hope they can succeed, because we need stables that will put $$ into IL racing.

They're standing two studs in IL this year: Odds On Dana (Artiscape-Nadia Lobell-No Nukes!!) and Make It Brief (Camluck-Lingerie-Abercrombie).  Both at $3,000 -- maybe these guys can help not only Odds On, but the state of IL.

Best,
EW
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sn
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 12:47:39 PM »

Couple of weeks , a few days you know what I'm saying Paul!!! and I can also tell you that most of the Hanover stock has already been purchased before they ever hit that sales ring!!!

Learn the game!!! Paul oh I forgot you know all about it!!!
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burton
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 12:56:28 PM »

Paul,

Thanks for your posts. I find them most informative.
While not everyone is always 100% accurate, I can see that you try to be.
Thanks for the accurate info!

For my money, one of Odds On's weaknesses in stakes eliminations is Tetrick.
He is often out there gunning like there is no tomorrow, when tomorrow is what they're racing for.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 01:01:02 PM »

Paul,

Thanks for your posts. I find them most informative.
While not everyone is always 100% accurate, I can see that you try to be.
Thanks for the accurate info!

Most agreed.

For my money, one of Odds On's weaknesses in stakes eliminations is Tetrick.
He is often out there gunning like there is no tomorrow, when tomorrow is what they're racing for.

Question: when a driver drives full-time for a stable, like Tim does for Odds On -- is there generally some sort of "cut" worked out?  Basically, do they work a "deal" out for giving the driver so many drives?  Just curious...

Best,
EW
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Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Dan Nance
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 01:02:13 PM »

While we're on the subject of Robin lets clear something up. Robin's name WAS NOT on any list for taxes owed. Dana's was but not Robin.

    Also, for the record Jim Eaton's name was not on any such list either.

    " GET YOUR INFO CORRECT BEFORE POSTING IT LADDIES "

    Now go back on topic.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 01:04:49 PM »

Couple of weeks , a few days you know what I'm saying Paul!!! and I can also tell you that most of the Hanover stock has already been purchased before they ever hit that sales ring!!!

Learn the game!!! Paul oh I forgot you know all about it!!!

Yes, I know what you're saying. By the way, almost 700 yearlings were sold in Lexington earlier this month.  They bought exactly zero.

As for your statement about the Hanover stock being purchased before they get to the sale, I have a one word response...bullshit. Try emailing Murray Brown, the sale's general manager, and ask him about that.  Roll Eyes
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burton
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 01:05:14 PM »

Hello Nance!

How would the world survive without you?
Did President Bush seek your input for his Supreme Court nominee?
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njhorseman
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 01:06:21 PM »

Paul,

Thanks for your posts. I find them most informative.
While not everyone is always 100% accurate, I can see that you try to be.
Thanks for the accurate info!

For my money, one of Odds On's weaknesses in stakes eliminations is Tetrick.
He is often out there gunning like there is no tomorrow, when tomorrow is what they're racing for.


Thanks for the compliment!
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njhorseman
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 01:10:39 PM »

Most agreed.

Question: when a driver drives full-time for a stable, like Tim does for Odds On -- is there generally some sort of "cut" worked out?  Basically, do they work a "deal" out for giving the driver so many drives?  Just curious...

Best,
EW

EW:
It's not unknown for the "big boys" to command a little bigger piece of the action in return for committing to your horse in the major stakes races.

A guy like Tetrick is hardly in a position to command anything extra. He should be grateful for the opportunity. But, who knows...
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sn
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 01:12:10 PM »

Ok Paul, all I can tell you is to "Lean The Game" my freind, some things cannot be admitted to or published!!!
would you like me to put the list in JD's book of all the horses that I have bought and sold long before they ever hit the sales ring, and all the kickbacks that were given back to trainers from certain farms after overpaying for yearlings at the sales?Huh
you'll see, everyone will learn alot of things about the game!!! be patient!!!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 01:13:21 PM »

EW:
It's not unknown for the "big boys" to command a little bigger piece of the action in return for committing to your horse in the major stakes races.

A guy like Tetrick is hardly in a position to command anything extra. He should be grateful for the opportunity. But, who knows...

In this case, Paul -- I would actually be wondering if it's backwards.  Can they pay Timmy less because they give him so many drives?  Almost how (I suppose) you'd put a trainer on salary (with potential bonus), if they ran your whole stable?

Best,
EW
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Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
Dan Nance
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2005, 01:15:21 PM »

Hello Nance!

How would the world survive without you?
Did President Bush seek your input for his Supreme Court nominee?

As long as you're here Tom the world will be just fine. Bush is the worst president in the history of the US.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2005, 01:18:15 PM »

Ok Paul, all I can tell you is to "Lean The Game" my freind, some things cannot be admitted to or published!!!
would you like me to put the list in JD's book of all the horses that I have bought and sold long before they ever hit the sales ring, and all the kickbacks that were given back to trainers from certain farms after overpaying for yearlings at the sales?Huh
you'll see, everyone will learn alot of things about the game!!! be patient!!!

That's right SN......we're going to BLOW THE LID of harness racing when Joe's book comes out.

    Tell Paul about what went on at Harrisburg when we sold Clark Gable out there back in 98.
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sn
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2005, 01:18:30 PM »

That sounds like a LeVin move with that contract stuff, it doesnt work in this game there is no loyalty you;re as good as your last win!!! Big John carver tried that also going out a recruting Walter Case and sighning him to an exclusive contract!!! you seen what happened there, when he found out what kind of trainer he was driving for contract or no contract Walter said Bye Bye!!!
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njhorseman
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 01:23:48 PM »

Ok Paul, all I can tell you is to "Lean The Game" my freind, some things cannot be admitted to or published!!!
would you like me to put the list in JD's book of all the horses that I have bought and sold long before they ever hit the sales ring, and all the kickbacks that were given back to trainers from certain farms after overpaying for yearlings at the sales?Huh
you'll see, everyone will learn alot of things about the game!!! be patient!!!

SN:
All the things you say do happen...but that is a far cry from your claim that most of Hanover's yearlings are sold before the auction.

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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 01:25:50 PM »

That's right SN......we're going to BLOW THE LID of harness racing when Joe's book comes out.

    Tell Paul about what went on at Harrisburg when we sold Clark Gable out there back in 98.



Dan,

How much more do you think you know than anyone else involved in the game?

Some of your stories might surprise me, but someone that's head-over-heels in harness racing?  I would highly doubt it.  But just guessing here...I doubt your experience could be THAT MUCH different than anyone else's.

Best,
EW
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sn
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2005, 01:26:33 PM »

They just dont get it cause they have'nt lived it like us!!! there are more back room deals and swindling of owners cash at those sales than go on anywhere!!!

Just wait til we "Blow the lid off Harness racing"!!!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2005, 01:27:24 PM »

all the kickbacks that were given back to trainers from certain farms after overpaying for yearlings at the sales?Huh

I was curious about this.  I've noticed some interesting bidding patterns at some of the auctions I've attended...

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2005, 01:31:21 PM »

In this case, Paul -- I would actually be wondering if it's backwards.  Can they pay Timmy less because they give him so many drives?  Almost how (I suppose) you'd put a trainer on salary (with potential bonus), if they ran your whole stable?

Best,
EW

EW:
I've never heard of a driver doing that. Since I've had a private trainer, I can tell you from personal experience how it works. The salary you pay is in lieu of the trainer's usual per diem training fee. You don't pay him $35 per day per head, for example...you pay him a salary, and you directly pay the other stable expenses. It's just like you would do in any other business you owned that has employees.  He still keeps the 5% ( and might get more) commission as a performance-based bonus.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2005, 01:32:51 PM »

EW:
I've never heard of a driver doing that. Since I've had a private trainer, I can tell you from personal experience how it works. The salary you pay is in lieu of the trainer's usual per diem training fee. You don't pay him $35 per day per head, for example...you pay him a salary, and you directly pay the other stable expenses. It's just like you would do in any other business you owned that has employees.  He still keeps the 5% ( and might get more) commission as a performance-based bonus.

Gotcha.  So many negotiating the $25 fee away, but that's it?

So, there's no way to be competitive for drives?  For example, I wanted to offer myself at 3% (still overpaying -- haha), I couldn't?

Best,
Ew
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njhorseman
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2005, 01:36:05 PM »

Gotcha.  So many negotiating the $25 fee away, but that's it?

So, there's no way to be competitive for drives?  For example, I wanted to offer myself at 3% (still overpaying -- haha), I couldn't?

Best,
Ew

EW:
I guess you could do whatever you want.  Shocked  Grin
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