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Author Topic: followups  (Read 2737 times)
Dan Nance
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« on: January 06, 2006, 01:44:06 PM »

It didn't take no time at all for the laws that hurt the horseman to be passed but it sure is taking forever for the clowns in Springfield to figure out that harness racing in Illinois needs help.

    Illinois harness racing isn't getting any help from Springfield because they don't want to give them any help for whatever reason. I know one thing, if I were the Johnston's making millions of extra dollars off recapture I would make sure that I would line the pockets of those lawmakers down in Springfield every year to make sure recapture stays into law. And how does anyone know that's not happening? When you're dealing with nothing but a bunch of corrupt crooks how can you EVER expect things to change? It's no wonder why the Fed's are heading to Illinois to look into widespread corruption. I hope they look into Chicago harness racing and send these crooks to a cell next the John Leahy.   
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SUPERMAN
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 01:48:41 PM »

            Good post Terry me and Clark Kent resect your thoughts and just want to make the IHHA work harder and cover all angles of the sport. I may be harsh at times but only because I care and can't stand to see how bad its getting in Illinois.
Gotta go now because its getting hot in this phone booth. Happy Racing. Grin Grin
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Petro
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 01:49:11 PM »

Absolutely right on Dan!!!!!
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Sly Rossi
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 05:43:34 PM »

I'm starting to like this at least some people can see what happened
congratulations to the IHHA,the Johnstons, Darcy Pletcher,Duncan Price and whomever else didn't have the fortitude to wait. People like this like to shoot off their mouths and then they crumble under a little pressure

Sly
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 05:46:37 PM »

I'm starting to like this at least some people can see what happened
congratulations to the IHHA,the Johnstons, Darcy Pletcher,Duncan Price and whomever else didn't have the fortitude to wait. People like this like to shoot off their mouths and then they crumble under a little pressure

Sly

Yeah, like 15 positives hanging over your head and a 6 month suspension already handed down.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 08:32:10 PM »

If you don't care about off-shore betting, then you don't care about its effect on purse accounts.  Possibly that is because the tracks still advertise their total handle, but don't explain what is generated as a result.  Comparing handles from 1994 to those of 2005 is not even as close as mixing apples and oranges.  Since you don't seem to believe me, just find someone who can show you the breakdown on purse contribution from the various sources and variations, maybe they can explain it better.

First. The statement repeated often that handle is the same. It is the same amount but not the same commissions to tracks and horsemen. It is there for any body to read in the IRB reports.

1994 Illinois harness meet wagering was $557 millions. 2004 Illinois harness meet wagering was $374 millions. Wagering in Illinois generates purse money. From 1994 to 2004 incoming simulcast did grew $200 millions. Horsemen get 1.5% of that posibly. Same as the track. Extra 1.5% of $200 millions = $3 millions is all.

In Illinois betting moved off track. Shifted to simulcats also. That costs money to import makes lower purses. Except at OTBs it makes more. In 1994 there wasnt simulcats.

On track betting dropped from $151 millions in 1994 to $56 millions in 2004. Cost to horsemen and tracks is around $8.5 millions each. 50 50 splits. Inter track bets dropped from $140 millions to $106 millions. Cost to hortsemen and tracks was $3 millions each. 50 50 splits. For OTBs horsemen made good. Simulcats wagers are 50-50 not the old 75-25 or what ever. OTB betting droped from $266 millions to $210 millions but horsemen got more money than before while tracks lost. When betting was $266 millions on Illinois they made $12 millions purses at OTBs but for $210 millions mostly simulcasts they earned $15 millions. Thats the issue of recapture. Splits at OTBs has already been changed in horsemens favor. Bettors at OTB are betting simulcats not local harness.

Final story is Illinois betting during harness hours is way down. Betting on Illinois harness from Illinois facilitys is way down. Thats the root cause of problems.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 08:49:14 PM by Richard Breth » Report to moderator   Logged
Thomas Graham
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 08:52:28 PM »

Everybody gets this part wrong about incoming simulcasts --- both the track and the horsemen get way more than 1.5% each of that money.

(On the outgoing simulcasts --- i.e. out of state money bet on IL races, that 1.5% each is about right).

Using 20% as the blended take on wagers (less for WPS, more for gimmicks):

100% is the bet
80% is returned to bettors
leaves 20%

From the 20%:
3% to state of Illinois
3% to the provider of the signal
leaves 14% to divide between horsemen and track (in t-breds its 50/50, so 7% each)

Now some of the tracks charge more than 3% for the signal (Calif./NY are both 3.5%) meaning less money to divide, but you get the point.

The facts are that there are more hands in the pie, and the money is split more ways.

TJG --- not the trainer
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 09:14:19 PM »

Everybody gets this part wrong about incoming simulcasts --- both the track and the horsemen get way more than 1.5% each of that money.

(On the outgoing simulcasts --- i.e. out of state money bet on IL races, that 1.5% each is about right).

Sorry I meant incoming simulcast money for Illinois races. Incoming simulcats to someone else out-of-state. Smiley Thats the number that gone up $200 millions on Illinois harness since 1994. The result is the same just $3 millions extra to Illinois horsemen.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 09:18:17 PM »


From the 20%:
3% to state of Illinois
3% to the provider of the signal
leaves 14% to divide between horsemen and track (in t-breds its 50/50, so 7% each)

I think this is wrong isnt it? State tax is 1.5% since 1999.

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Dan Nance
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2006, 09:21:07 PM »

Sorry I meant incoming simulcast money for Illinois races. Incoming simulcats to someone else out-of-state. Smiley Thats the number that gone up $200 millions on Illinois harness since 1994. The result is the same just $3 millions extra to Illinois horsemen.

This person knows so much about simulcast money and all the laws down in Springfield concerning racing he or she must be someone in managament not some part time gambler like he or she claims to be. What part time gambler gets that involved in all this management crap? Give me a break already.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2006, 09:32:26 PM »

This person knows so much about simulcast money and all the laws down in Springfield concerning racing he or she must be someone in managament not some part time gambler like he or she claims to be. What part time gambler gets that involved in all this management crap? Give me a break already.

Maybe instaed of you thinking I know too much you might consider the possibility you are far too ignorant.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2006, 09:40:06 PM »

Maybe instaed of you thinking I know too much you might consider the possibility you are far too ignorant.

Whatever you say Mr. or Ms. management person. If you're so wonderful and smart and everything else you should be proud to post under your real name. But, no you use Dick Breath because you don't want anyone to know who you are because eveyone probably knows you and hates your guts.

    Now go back to talking about numbers and laws down in Springfield because you don't know jack shit about the racing end of the business.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2006, 09:46:38 PM »

Now go back to talking about numbers and laws down in Springfield because you don't know jack shit about the racing end of the business.

You mean the end that doesnt happen at all if theres no numbers and laws?
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2006, 09:56:40 PM »

You mean the end that doesnt happen at all if theres no numbers and laws?

No, management person I mean the end that doesn't happen when there are no horses to race so there can be no numbers and laws.

    Just like a typical management person you don't seem to understand that without horses, trainers, drivers, and owners there are no racetracks or laws or numbers used by greedy no good track owners and lawmakers on the take.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 10:04:28 PM by Dan Nance » Report to moderator   Logged
Richard Breth
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2006, 10:09:02 PM »

Just like a typical mamagement person you don't seem to understand that without horses, trainers, drivers, and owners there are no racetracks or laws or numbers used by greedy no good track owners and lawmakers on the take.

I understand that. When have I ever said other wise?
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TC
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2006, 11:37:43 PM »

I understand that. When have I ever said other wise?
Dickie, what you say makes no sense because you're too busy loading your mouth with your name - DICK.  Stop being an embarassment to this forum because if it weren't for your ability to regurgitate news articles, you'd have ZERO to add about Chicago harness racing.  All of us true harness fans are sorry that when you and Janine got this forum running, you couldn't have imagined that talking harness racing would be 9-10 times more popular.  Because you, warden, and Janine didn't know any better, now you've got to be a ruiner and wrecker of good debate on this harness forum.  Guys like Dan built this forum with his "tell it like it is" style.  Anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell the difference between Dan's opinions and cold, hard facts.  We don't need the likes of you, a know nothing if I ever read one, haunting the place with your 1/2 truths, lies, and miquoted facts and figures.  I'd rather good posters with their facts in near impeccible order like EW or NJ than a Dickbreth poseur troll wannabe.  You're like Huck Finn's evil twin rafting his way through our waters telling tall tales, all with the support of the truly clueless about harness racing in IL (like warden and Janine).  You're 10 X more dangerous than Wendt because at least Tom had the guts to meet people who views differed in any way with his own.  You are a clueless scumbag who would probably get hit over the head with a shovel if you spent 10 minutes in a barn.  Go haunt the unpopular t-bred side.   They need the action.  Leave this side alone so we can report real stories like the strike being over.  That was dated before all the newswires, before the IHHA website, and before every internet site.  You wouldn't have a clue it was over of you didn't read it here.  You wouldn't know about the meeting if it weren't for the tireless work of a Donna Lee or Joe D.  Go back to that new strategy you said you were going to use in November and help this forum instead of arguing from behind the bushes like a little girl every 2 seconds.  Sheeeeesh.  TC
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2006, 11:46:28 PM »

Dickie, what you say makes no sense

Swell. Please post your interpetation/analysis of the handle and purse numbers here for all to critique. Mine might be flawed. I admit. Lets see your numbers. As long as you are posting numbers lets see that analysis of the johnstons making $12 millions you wave around like Joe McCarthy and his list of known communists. We all ready know you have a first class potty mouth. I wont contest your pre eminance in that regard. No need to continue that.
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2006, 11:57:45 PM »

We all ready know you have a first class potty mouth.
...potty mouth...this coming from a character named DICK BREATH -classic.  Dickie, Dickie, Dickie, youe screenname is in the potty.  Get offf that potty so I can have John Drew "spew" some of his loose stool on your head, you clueless goof.  LOL    TC
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2006, 01:33:29 AM »

...potty mouth...this coming from a character named DICK BREATH -classic.  Dickie, Dickie, Dickie, youe screenname is in the potty.  Get offf that potty so I can have John Drew "spew" some of his loose stool on your head, you clueless goof.  LOL    TC

What I thought. Zero ilumination on any real numbers. Plenty of potty mouth. You fancy yourself some sort of sugar daddy to harness racing?
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2006, 04:38:18 AM »

What I thought. Zero ilumination on any real numbers. Plenty of potty mouth. You fancy yourself some sort of sugar daddy to harness racing?

No, you fancy yourself as some management sugar daddy. Shove your laws, numbers and articles up your ass. The Lord guided me to this forum to do a job that others don't have the balls to do or say. While I'm hear no management kiss ass or IRB backer is going to brainwash the viewers of this forum. Nor, are any goofs going to post lies about people that aren't true. And I'm going to ride the hell out of the cheaters with all their positive tests like Rucker, Joe (the knife) and others so that they wish they never heard the name Dan ***.

    The evil people of harness racing have survived long enough now I'm here because it was what the Lord ordered up. The almighty guided me to this forum in 2004 to do what needs to be done and that is to " tell it like it is ".   
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TC
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2006, 09:06:32 AM »

Dan, maybe Dickie is Kristufek - the ultimate goof in perhaps all of racing.  One day, he slithered into the barn begging for $50 because he had a lock.  After laughing in his face, we gave it to him.  He told us his lock, then we bet $3,000 on track and another $8,000 with the book.  I believe the horse ran - DEAD LAST.  Needless to say, he not only never said "sorry", but never showed his face back there again.   If he only knew some of the heavy hitters who fired on that rat, he wouldn't have touted such a disease.  A couple of "family" men wanted to crown him over the head with one of those metal garbage cans after that debacle.  I always wondered who that goof blew to get a job in broadcasting with his st-st-st-stammer and ugly, Wolfman punim.  LOL   TC
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2006, 09:19:20 AM »

Dickie, 1st off queen of misinformation, I don't "wave around" a $12 million figure - that would be you.  2nd, my source on any figure of that nature is CONFIDENTIAL, so go blow some more.  I can say the source is 99.9 % reliable and very close to the whole shebang.  I'm sorry that you do no real good to this forum other than take as Gospel everything you see in a paper.  Since you know nothing about the sport, you must rely on such sources.  I have better, well placed, and reliable sources.  You are a kissass, suckup no doubt - just like a Kristufek-type.  Who knows, maybe I'll even give you a glimpse into how the game is played from this angle.  I won't hold my breath waiting for you though.  TA.  TC
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2006, 12:09:28 PM »

No, you fancy yourself as some management sugar daddy. Shove your laws, numbers and articles up your ass. The Lord guided me to this forum to do a job that others don't have the balls to do or say. While I'm hear no management kiss ass or IRB backer is going to brainwash the viewers of this forum. Nor, are any goofs going to post lies about people that aren't true. And I'm going to ride the hell out of the cheaters with all their positive tests like Rucker, Joe (the knife) and others so that they wish they never heard the name Dan ***.

    The evil people of harness racing have survived long enough now I'm here because it was what the Lord ordered up. The almighty guided me to this forum in 2004 to do what needs to be done and that is to " tell it like it is ".   

Wow Dan. That is some public break down.
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Chitown Stan
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2006, 12:20:04 PM »

Is there any chance that Breath could be John Johnston himself?
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2006, 12:53:39 PM »

Can someone explain to me where this " Followups " topic came from? I seem to recall these posts being under another topic. Was the topic taken down and this is what's left.

    Please explain Janine because I didn't start a topic called " Followups ".
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jrstark
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2006, 01:01:21 PM »

It was no longer about the original topic so I split the thread off on its own.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2006, 01:12:22 PM »

It was no longer about the original topic so I split the thread off on its own.


I see. What topic was it under? The Joe D. topic? Also, you can thank Dick Breath for taking it off topic. 
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2006, 01:55:53 PM »

I see. What topic was it under? The Joe D. topic? Also, you can thank Dick Breath for taking it off topic. 

It was under the Tery Hunt subject. I posted some numbers he talked about. Handle number splits. You posted attack on me. Fun began. Thanks to YOU! Its all still at the top of this subject for anyone to see.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2006, 02:18:27 PM »

It was under the Tery Hunt subject. I posted some numbers he talked about. Handle number splits. You posted attack on me. Fun began. Thanks to YOU! Its all still at the top of this subject for anyone to see.

You call it an attact because I said you must be a management person? That's an opinion not an attack!
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2006, 02:31:36 PM »

You call it an attact because I said you must be a management person? That's an opinion not an attack!

You wrote your "opinion" I am not who I say. Implication is I am a liar. Had nothing to do with the subject being discussed which was mutual tax. Thats an attack and derailing a thread.

If you want better threads on the forum quit dumping in unrelated opionions about people writing.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2006, 02:36:37 PM »

You wrote your "opinion" I am not who I say. Implication is I am a liar. Had nothing to do with the subject being discussed which was mutual tax. Thats an attack and derailing a thread.

If you want better threads on the forum quit dumping in unrelated opionions about people writing.

Then you should practice what you preach!
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2006, 02:57:05 PM »

Then you should practice what you preach!

We can do a deal. I wont attack you personaly. I will still say some thing about an idea or fact you wrote but no personal attck. No comment about Dan ***. Can you do the same?
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fineline
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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2006, 03:15:05 PM »

I have been telling you people for almost to  2years I called  it a cancer money bet from within the state on the state races and comes back a lot less revenue no one except Tom W listen and did some research My figures showed the change in where the money came was 22000 a night it cost horseman and track.
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« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2006, 05:54:03 PM »

Let's see- how about the track owners put up an OTB in EVERY neighborhood  and then see how many people come out to the track. The price of gas, location of the track, traffic,  all kinds of problems contribute to the loss of ON-TRACK handle. But there is NO incentive to going to the track live.  Add to that the horsemen get a different cut of the gimmick pools than the WPS pools. The horsemen screwed themselves, or rather a certain few absolutely did. Approving  the MANY OTBs, recapture and the different cuts of the pools certainly hurt(killed) the horsemen. And I seem to remember Langley, and Duncan Price specifically, telling horsemen what a GREAT deal they were getting. Am I the only one who remembers Langley going around and talking up the full card simulcasting as a fantastic idea? That's where recapture came into the picture. Only an IDIOT would think that if you offer 10 tracks to bet on instead of one, you're live track handle won't go down.But that's what the general horsemen were led to believe. I guess that you could say they were duped. And guess by WHO??
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2006, 06:02:26 PM »

Let's see- how about the track owners put up an OTB in EVERY neighborhood  and then see how many people come out to the track. The price of gas, location of the track, traffic,  all kinds of problems contribute to the loss of ON-TRACK handle. But there is NO incentive to going to the track live.  Add to that the horsemen get a different cut of the gimmick pools than the WPS pools. The horsemen screwed themselves, or rather a certain few absolutely did. Approving  the MANY OTBs, recapture and the different cuts of the pools certainly hurt(killed) the horsemen. And I seem to remember Langley, and Duncan Price specifically, telling horsemen what a GREAT deal they were getting. Am I the only one who remembers Langley going around and talking up the full card simulcasting as a fantastic idea? That's where recapture came into the picture. Only an IDIOT would think that if you offer 10 tracks to bet on instead of one, you're live track handle won't go down.But that's what the general horsemen were led to believe. I guess that you could say they were duped. And guess by WHO??

Remeber full card being more horseman idea. Presented that way in the news. If tracks wanted it why were they so worried they added recapture?

Had to come either way. If it didnt everyone at OTBs and inter track would stay home to bet those other tracks on computer or phone. People already betting other tracks on Phildelphia Phone Bet then.

Too much pointing fingers back in the past on this forum anyhow. Whats done is done cant turn back time and force people to go back to the track to bet only Illinois.
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« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2006, 06:44:27 PM »

Full card simucasting was inspired by Langley and recapture was his insurance. The horsemen who pushed for it were Langley stooges. And as for the past being the past-that's the only way to predict the future. And I agree, full card simulcasting was going to come no matter what, but the horsemen could have gotten a BETTER deal than Johnston/Langley offered. And while "what's done is done" is true, you CAN UNDO the wrongs that have occured.Meaning that the horsemen HAVE to get a more equitable share of the pools and the cuts. The total pie isn't that much less, it's that the horsemen are getting quite a bit smaller share of it. AND, I doubt, an honest count of it. Meanwhile,Johnston/Langley make millions while the horsemen get shafted. And if they aren't- why do they push for MORE dates??? If they were losing money you better believe they would be shutting down. Ala SPK. And just wondering-how long does a racetrack have to NOT race for it not to be considered a racetrack. I mean
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2006, 06:50:04 PM »

Full card simucasting was inspired by Langley and recapture was his insurance. The horsemen who pushed for it were Langley stooges. And as for the past being the past-that's the only way to predict the future. And I agree, full card simulcasting was going to come no matter what, but the horsemen could have gotten a BETTER deal than Johnston/Langley offered. And while "what's done is done" is true, you CAN UNDO the wrongs that have occured.Meaning that the horsemen HAVE to get a more equitable share of the pools and the cuts. The total pie isn't that much less, it's that the horsemen are getting quite a bit smaller share of it. AND, I doubt, an honest count of it. Meanwhile,Johnston/Langley make millions while the horsemen get shafted. And if they aren't- why do they push for MORE dates??? If they were losing money you better believe they would be shutting down. Ala SPK. And just wondering-how long does a racetrack have to NOT race for it not to be considered a racetrack. I mean

Now here's someone who knows the score and knows what they are talking about!
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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2006, 06:53:01 PM »

 Continued-. I mean QCD still has betting parlors, SPK still has betting parlors, why can't Aurora Downs have some betting parlors?? Is it infinity?? Are there any limits?? Talk about a license to steal.  We have NO track, but we have betting parlors all over. Could it be corruption??? Maybe *** is right. Maybe the Feds should be looking into what politicians are on whose payroll. Worries, Tricky Dick?Huh PL/WJ???
 
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2006, 08:20:58 PM »

As has been mentioned before, QCD was grandfathered in to the law.  Sportsman's is still running, they merged with Hawthorne to form Hawthorne National.  They were basically pushed into that by the IRB.

If Aurora wants OTBs, someone needs to get a law written to allow it.
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2006, 11:31:49 PM »

Why were they PUSHED into it?? And isn't the IRB's job to REGULATE racing not "push,suggest demand" things FOR the racetracks? If you run your track into the ground, you should be the one suffering, not making big bucks. If they aren't racing at YOUR track(and haven't in years) then how can there be BETTING PARLORS for your track? They need to change the laws. And why aren't the horsemen trying to limit OTBs?  Or at least trying to change their cut? Why can't Aurora Downs get "grandfathered in"? And since Sportsmans and Hawthorne have merged, why don't they have the SAME parlors?? And they should be limited to however many parlors ONE track is allowed. More corruption??
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jrstark
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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2006, 01:41:14 AM »

Why were they PUSHED into it??

Someone else may remember more, but basically they thought it was a duplication.  Why have two neighboring tracks going after the same horses.  Combine them into one and you save money.

Quote
If they aren't racing at YOUR track(and haven't in years) then how can there be BETTING PARLORS for your track? They need to change the laws.

The agreement was they wouldn't lose the advantages of having a track if they agreed to the merger.

Quote
And why aren't the horsemen trying to limit OTBs?  Or at least trying to change their cut? Why can't Aurora Downs get "grandfathered in"?

Why should they limit OTBs, the tracks haven't opened all the ones agreed to originally.  I think it's only about half of them.

Has Aurora Downs asked for OTBs?

Quote
And since Sportsmans and Hawthorne have merged, why don't they have the SAME parlors?? And they should be limited to however many parlors ONE track is allowed. More corruption??

See above, that was part of agreeing to merge.

Nothing's happened for months at Sportsman's, not since they finished taking down the hayloft.
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