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Author Topic: Amicar  (Read 2246 times)
trotter1
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« on: July 26, 2007, 08:42:27 AM »

I apologize in advance if this has already been talked about but could someone let me know what this is?

I see that it's being disclosed now at the BigM.   Is it a painkiller?   Could you speak of advantages and
disadvantages?

Thanks!
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njhorseman
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 09:02:45 AM »

I apologize in advance if this has already been talked about but could someone let me know what this is?

I see that it's being disclosed now at the BigM.   Is it a painkiller?   Could you speak of advantages and
disadvantages?

Thanks!


Amicar is used to treat EIPH (bleeding) in conjunction with Lasix. A number of states, such as PA, have allowed its use for years. NJ just recently changed its rules to permit Amicar use in certified bleeders.

My personal experience with Amicar was favorable. If I had a horse racing in NJ that was bleeding through his Lasix, it would generally improve when I raced at Pocono where the horse could be treated with Amicar. Like any medication, it may work better for some horses than others.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 09:09:27 AM »

By the way, Amicar is not a diuretic like Lasix, so it can be useful for treating horses that tend to get dehydrated and have electrolyte imbalance problems from Lasix. I found I could cut down the Lasix dose when  treating with Amicar, and it seemed to help the horses that had that problem.
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trotter1
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 09:55:30 AM »

Thank you sir  beer
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njhorseman
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 10:17:16 AM »

You're welcome.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 10:46:32 AM »

By the way, Amicar is not a diuretic like Lasix, so it can be useful for treating horses that tend to get dehydrated and have electrolyte imbalance problems from Lasix. I found I could cut down the Lasix dose when  treating with Amicar, and it seemed to help the horses that had that problem.


I didn't realize you were a licensed vet NJ Roll Eyes.

You said it, I didn't "I found I could cut down on the Lasix dose" dude.

Congratulations geezer.
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FreeLegged
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 11:09:42 AM »

DD
you are going too far in twisting people's words into meaning something that was not intended.

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Gb
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 11:18:23 AM »

DD
you are going too far in twisting people's words into meaning something that was not intended.


That is all he ever does, and when NJ busts him on what he posts, then the subject gets changed. talk about someone that just wastes space!!!! doh
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njhorseman
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 11:19:54 AM »


I didn't realize you were a licensed vet NJ Roll Eyes.

You said it, I didn't "I found I could cut down on the Lasix dose" dude.

Congratulations geezer.

It's not the vet who decides how much Lasix is administered to the horse. Within regulations (states typically have minimum and maximum doses), it's up to the horse's connections to decide how much to give.

One doesn't have to be a vet, but merely have some intelligence and horsemanship, to understand the relationships between Lasix, dehydration, and electrolyte imbalance.
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MWG
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 11:22:34 AM »

And once again, NJH puts the "dunce hat" on Dailey Daley and makes him go sit in the corner.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 11:34:34 AM »

It's amazing how someone can ask a straightforward question, someone else can give a simple, factual answer, and it ends up with  hijack by DD.  Roll Eyes

I intentionally didn't toss in a little aside about how many scores I made over the years by taking horses that had been racing at Freehold, shipping them to Pocono when Freehold is closed in the summer, and treating them with Amicar in addition to their Lasix.  Grin

Daley, you chump...I hope the cash lining my pockets when I made those scores included some of your dead money .  nyah
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 11:38:10 AM by njhorseman » Report to moderator   Logged
the DailyDaley
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2007, 01:33:48 PM »

It's not the vet who decides how much Lasix is administered to the horse. Within regulations (states typically have minimum and maximum doses), it's up to the horse's connections to decide how much to give.

One doesn't have to be a vet, but merely have some intelligence and horsemanship, to understand the relationships between Lasix, dehydration, and electrolyte imbalance.


This couldn't be FARTHER from the truth. The state vet has to put the horse on the lasix list. The twitch goes on the horses nose NJ, not yours. Which is where the problem is. Based on the SCOPE RESULTS the horse is administered their REQUIRED DOSAGE by the STATE.

The EXTRA DOSE that the trainer would give IS ILLEGAL. And is usually given to MASK something.

If they DID more GRAVITY TESTING on the BLOOD, ALL STATES would find out the EXCESS LASIX in the horses system. But they don't want to catch them, so its BUSINESS as USUAL at Bowel Movement Downs.

This is FACT dude.
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talking head
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2007, 01:54:46 PM »

In Illinois the state vet asks you how much lasix you want to give your horse!
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2007, 02:10:53 PM »

In Illinois the state vet asks you how much lasix you want to give your horse!

The state vet asks what the dosage was from the previous administering state.

SURE YOU CAN TELL THEM 20 CCs, or 30 or whatever.

I have a call into the stete vet at the Meadows.

To be continued.
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talking head
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2007, 02:19:39 PM »

The state vet asks what the dosage was from the previous administering state.

SURE YOU CAN TELL THEM 20 CCs, or 30 or whatever.

I have a call into the stete vet at the Meadows.

To be continued.
It doesn't matter what the dosage was from the other state! Some horses can not handle a high dose of lasix.
20cc - 30cc WHAT!  Roll Eyes
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2007, 02:23:47 PM »

I agree. Some horses get dehyrated quickly with the EXTRA. When you go from state to state, you carry a document (just like you do a coggins for health reasons) which stipulates the dosage administered from the previous state.

This way, there is no MIS-communication between ANYBODY concerning the dosage.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2007, 03:20:56 PM »

I agree. Some horses get dehyrated quickly with the EXTRA. When you go from state to state, you carry a document (just like you do a coggins for health reasons) which stipulates the dosage administered from the previous state.

This way, there is no MIS-communication between ANYBODY concerning the dosage.


Bull. There's no document that has the Lasix dosage. Different states have different allowable dosages.. The fact that the horse is a certified bleeder is documented on his electronic eligibility "papers" with the USTA.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2007, 03:23:18 PM »


This couldn't be FARTHER from the truth. The state vet has to put the horse on the lasix list. The twitch goes on the horses nose NJ, not yours. Which is where the problem is. Based on the SCOPE RESULTS the horse is administered their REQUIRED DOSAGE by the STATE.

The EXTRA DOSE that the trainer would give IS ILLEGAL. And is usually given to MASK something.

If they DID more GRAVITY TESTING on the BLOOD, ALL STATES would find out the EXCESS LASIX in the horses system. But they don't want to catch them, so its BUSINESS as USUAL at Bowel Movement Downs.

This is FACT dude.

Of course the vet puts the horse on the list. That's why I used the term "certified bleeder." Beyond that, it's your choice as to how much Lasix you tell the vet to administer, within the guidelines set by state rules.

No one's talking about illegal extra Lasix, except you in your conspiracy theory addled mind.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2007, 03:27:06 PM »

It doesn't matter what the dosage was from the other state! Some horses can not handle a high dose of lasix.
20cc - 30cc WHAT!  Roll Eyes

20-30 cc's. Shows how much you know.  Roll Eyes
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2007, 03:29:35 PM »

Bull. There's no document that has the Lasix dosage. Different states have different allowable dosages.. The fact that the horse is a certified bleeder is documented on his electronic eligibility "papers" with the USTA.

This was a THOUGHT Elsie.

I see Delaware made their visit to Showplace Farms. Read the article below. The various trainers were contacted the day before and were told to have the horse ready for sampling.

I bet you the Clorox was busy yesterday.

Harrington, DE --- The Delaware Harness Racing Commission broke new ground on Tuesday (July 24) with its out-of-competition testing program by traveling to three states collecting blood samples from eight horses scheduled to race on Governor’s Day (Thursday, July 26, at Harrington Raceway).

Racing Administrator Hugh Gallagher, in consort with DHRC Chief Investigator Robert Collison, decided to implement the out-of-competition rule regardless of the stabling location of the horses randomly selected for testing.

DHRC rules allow for “any horse entered within 60 days of the draw date” to be tested for EPO/DPO or other like blood oxygenating substances. The DHRC rule provides for a 10-year suspension and $10,000 fine, absent extraordinary circumstances, for the possession of or presence of EPO/DPO in any test sample.

After Mr. Gallagher had consulted with Official Forensic Chemist Joe Strug of Dalare Laboratories in Philadelphia, Pa., he met with Mr. Collison and DHRC Commission Veterinarian Annie Renzetti on Monday (July 23) at Harrington to go over the rule, protocols and field practices for the upcoming testing. The protocol included procuring the official USTA tattoo number and markings to properly identify each horse.

After the races were drawn, one race was randomly selected by lot to be tested. Mr. Collison contacted every trainer in the race by phone to make arrangements for testing the next day. The horses were stabled in various locations including Showplace Farm in New Jersey and two other locations in Maryland.

At approximately 6:00 a.m. on Tuesday (July 24), Mr. Collison and Dr. Renzetti were joined by long standing Delaware DHRC Racing Official Brian Manges, who would identify each horse by tattoo and markings prior to Dr. Renzetti’s blood draws.

The team headed up the New Jersey Turnpike to Showplace and successfully obtained the required sample.

According to Chief Investigator Collison, “I believe we enjoyed complete success today. Our plan went flawlessly, collecting blood from eight horses stabled in three different states.”

Mr. Collison delivered all eight samples to Mr. Strug at Dalare Laboratories for ELISA screening tests.

Mr. Gallagher had high praise for this team.

“I am extremely grateful and fortunate to have three industry experts answer the call of duty on short notice and to successfully complete what in essence was a rapid deployment exercise. The DHRC is proud of the professionalism and courtesy manifested by these three individuals.”

The DHRC had prior experience with out-of-competition testing earlier in the year in compliance with a request from Dr. Lawrence Soma of the New Bolton Center. Dr. Soma had been retained by the DHRC as a consultant to thoroughly assess and analyze the DHRC’s Blood Gas Testing practices and procedures. One phase of his review called for testing horses at rest in their natural environment. Four trainers volunteered to work with the DHRC on that project which went very well.

Mr. Collison complimented the trainers on that occasion and Mr. Gallagher sent letters of appreciation. Mr. Collison again made reference to the trainers involved in yesterday’s out-of-competition testing.

“The trainers deserve recognition for their complete and trusting response to our requests. We could not have been shown more respect and cooperation.”

Mr. Gallagher concluded his comments on this operation by saying, “I believe that the overwhelming majority of horsemen competing in Delaware know that we have their best interests in mind. In turn, this sends a strong signal to the tracks that wagering on Delaware’s harness racing is a safe bet.

“Our testing programs are truly designed to level the playing field of competition and to permanently eliminate substances that become insidious to horses, such as EPO, from our jurisdiction (and hopefully the greater world of horse racing) once and for all.

“On behalf of our diligent Commissioners and the determined leadership of Delaware Secretary of Agriculture Michael Scuse (DSOA Special Appreciation Award–2005), we are all determined and committed to doing the very best we can to make Delaware’s harness racing programs first in integrity.”


It's RANDOM when they SHOW UP unannounced.

I would have to think Tony Soprano's garbage crew was busy.

The BLIND LEADING the BLIND. I can't say any more.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2007, 05:37:43 PM »

What this has to do with Lasix and Amicar is beyond me.

However, the visit to Showplace looks like no more than grandstanding by the DHRC. They had no choice but to announce their intentions, simply because the DHRC has absolutely no legal authority to conduct testing in NJ. When calling the trainers in advance, they obtained the permission of the trainers to have their horses tested. I'm sure they used the threat of scratching any horse whose trainer didn't "voluntarily" comply with the testing, and given the timing of the whole thing, no one would have had the time to get a court injunction to prevent the testing.

I'm glad you're sure that bleach will mask EPO. Did this bit of information come from the same person who told you that horses can get 30ccs of Lasix from the vet?
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Goliath
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2007, 12:30:40 AM »

I race in many states and the vet always asks how much Lasix you want. There is NO record of this. And who gives 20-30 cc's? 10-15 is allot. Most get 6-8.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2007, 07:06:50 AM »

I race in many states and the vet always asks how much Lasix you want. There is NO record of this. And who gives 20-30 cc's? 10-15 is allot. Most get 6-8.

Goliath:

Don't expect the DD to let the facts interfere with his delusions.  Cheesy
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2007, 07:38:30 AM »

What this has to do with Lasix and Amicar is beyond me.

However, the visit to Showplace looks like no more than grandstanding by the DHRC. They had no choice but to announce their intentions, simply because the DHRC has absolutely no legal authority to conduct testing in NJ. When calling the trainers in advance, they obtained the permission of the trainers to have their horses tested. I'm sure they used the threat of scratching any horse whose trainer didn't "voluntarily" comply with the testing, and given the timing of the whole thing, no one would have had the time to get a court injunction to prevent the testing.

I'm glad you're sure that bleach will mask EPO. Did this bit of information come from the same person who told you that horses can get 30ccs of Lasix from the vet?

Once again NJ thru your blind eye THINK. Every now and then a trainer will get NOTIFIED of an excessive limit of lasix thru a blood test.

If the state administers XXX then the blood should be somewhere in the xxx range. The labs know this number in ADVANCE.

When it exceeds the LIMIT, this means the horse came to the LASIX barn already TREATED with Lasix. And the state added to the trainers dose.

Which would but the horse over the LIMIT for an EXCESSIVE lasix dose.

As far as Delaware goes. I WOULD HOPE the race commission tests these horses on race day also. Actually take 2 more tests. One as soon as the horse enters the grounds and a post race sample. This way the lab could have a 2 or 3 day out sample, a hour sample prior to racing and then a post sample to compare.

I would also think if the testing would include the same methods used by the World Doping Agency, this would get CLEANED up MUCH faster.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2007, 08:41:06 AM »

Once again NJ thru your blind eye THINK. Every now and then a trainer will get NOTIFIED of an excessive limit of lasix thru a blood test.

If the state administers XXX then the blood should be somewhere in the xxx range. The labs know this number in ADVANCE.

When it exceeds the LIMIT, this means the horse came to the LASIX barn already TREATED with Lasix. And the state added to the trainers dose.

Which would but the horse over the LIMIT for an EXCESSIVE lasix dose.

As far as Delaware goes. I WOULD HOPE the race commission tests these horses on race day also. Actually take 2 more tests. One as soon as the horse enters the grounds and a post race sample. This way the lab could have a 2 or 3 day out sample, a hour sample prior to racing and then a post sample to compare.

I would also think if the testing would include the same methods used by the World Doping Agency, this would get CLEANED up MUCH faster.

Daley:

What makes you think that I'm unaware of testing for excess Lasix? That wasn't what we were "talking" about.

As far as the DE testing is concerned, how would testing for EPO  when they come in to the paddock and after the race help?  EPO is used several days before the race and direct evidence of it is gone by race day. That's why you need the out of competition testing for EPO.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2007, 07:56:11 PM »

Daley:

What makes you think that I'm unaware of testing for excess Lasix? That wasn't what we were "talking" about.

As far as the DE testing is concerned, how would testing for EPO  when they come in to the paddock and after the race help?  EPO is used several days before the race and direct evidence of it is gone by race day. That's why you need the out of competition testing for EPO.


Is the USE of EPO illegal or racing with it on RACE DAY is the question doh.

This thought process they have USED will be carved up by defense attorneys dude.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2007, 08:03:49 PM »


Is the USE of EPO illegal or racing with it on RACE DAY is the question doh.

This thought process they have USED will be carved up by defense attorneys dude.

The use of EPO itself is illegal under the rules, not just racing on it. Vets are not permittted to be in possession of it or dispense it.

Again, you will not detect it on race day. It's used several days out and by race day is not detectable.
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AmyHollar
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2007, 01:29:53 PM »

Notice how Dialey has changed the subject after being called to the carpet on his obvious lack of knowledge when it comes to training and racing horses? doh

In Ohio you can administer up to 10cc's of lasix and no less than 2 or 3 cc's.......I can't remember exactly which it is.  Most trainers around here it seems, give 5-7.  (Should I say, most trainers around here ASK the vet to administer?) doh doh

There is absolutely no advantage to giving a horse 20 or 30cc of lasix.  If I had time to find the documentation, I would post it.  I don't need to hear the masking theories because the detrimental side effects would far outway anything "masking" could accomplish.

There are also studies done on lasix overages being caused by the samples taken from the same side lasix was administered.  Hence a concerted effort to collect samples from the opposite side should always be made by trainers.
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Do you want cream with that cup of shut the hell up?
the DailyDaley
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2007, 02:15:10 PM »

Notice how Dialey has changed the subject after being called to the carpet on his obvious lack of knowledge when it comes to training and racing horses? doh

In Ohio you can administer up to 10cc's of lasix and no less than 2 or 3 cc's.......I can't remember exactly which it is.  Most trainers around here it seems, give 5-7.  (Should I say, most trainers around here ASK the vet to administer?) doh doh

There is absolutely no advantage to giving a horse 20 or 30cc of lasix.  If I had time to find the documentation, I would post it.  I don't need to hear the masking theories because the detrimental side effects would far outway anything "masking" could accomplish.

There are also studies done on lasix overages being caused by the samples taken from the same side lasix was administered.  Hence a concerted effort to collect samples from the opposite side should always be made by trainers.

Gee if it was ILLEGAL under the RULES as YOU STATE, why did the NJSP wait 18 months to get Ledford and the crew doh.

If the POSSESSION was that ILLEGAL, then the NJSP and NJRC REALLY DROPPED the ball in PROSECUTING LEDFORD and the gang.

You just proved my POINT even farther AMY, 18 MONTHS of nothing and the WAGERING PUBLIC was AGAIN PUNISHED by INEPT INVESTIGATING and PROSECUTING authorities.


Planning to ROB the BANK or ROBBING the BANK. To vastly different OFFENSES. If they couldn't enforce trainer responsibility on RACE day, you actually want me to BELIEVE they can enforce it on a horse thats in its stall 4 or 5 days prior to racing on a farm in another state.

Howard and Tim are licking their chops on this one.
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AmyHollar
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2007, 02:17:53 PM »

What does this have to do with the administration of lasix on race day? Undecided



Oh forget it.......................... doh
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2007, 02:19:59 PM »

You are correct Amy, it should have been in response to Elsie. I clicked on the wrong reply.

My humblest apologies to the Queen of Sinks.
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AmyHollar
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2007, 02:23:26 PM »

My humblest apologies to the Queen of Sinks.


Is this all the better you can do?  Stealing the ignorance of others to cover your own? rat



You probably have a nice family very proud of your manners. Roll Eyes
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Do you want cream with that cup of shut the hell up?
swinging late
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2007, 06:06:42 PM »

In Pennsylvania the vet asks the trainer how much Lasix he wants given. 2-10 cc's usually.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2007, 07:50:22 PM »

In Pennsylvania the vet asks the trainer how much Lasix he wants given. 2-10 cc's usually.

Sorry, but Daley has no respect for facts.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2007, 07:56:26 PM »

Gee if it was ILLEGAL under the RULES as YOU STATE, why did the NJSP wait 18 months to get Ledford and the crew doh.

If the POSSESSION was that ILLEGAL, then the NJSP and NJRC REALLY DROPPED the ball in PROSECUTING LEDFORD and the gang.

You just proved my POINT even farther AMY, 18 MONTHS of nothing and the WAGERING PUBLIC was AGAIN PUNISHED by INEPT INVESTIGATING and PROSECUTING authorities.


Planning to ROB the BANK or ROBBING the BANK. To vastly different OFFENSES. If they couldn't enforce trainer responsibility on RACE day, you actually want me to BELIEVE they can enforce it on a horse thats in its stall 4 or 5 days prior to racing on a farm in another state.

Howard and Tim are licking their chops on this one.

Sorry Daley, but possession of the EPO is only a minor violation of the law because it is not on the list of controlled dangerous substances. Steroids, on the other hand, are on the list of controlled dangerous substances. Thus, the Ledford crew was prosecuted on the steroid charges, not the EPO charges, because felony convictions would only be attainable for the steroids. You can argue all you want that EPO should also be a controlled dangerous substance (and I might not give you an argument on that), but the fact is that under the law it is not, while steroids are.
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