Chicago Barn to Wire
Home | News | Bloggers | Forums | Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Contact Us | Search


December 18, 2014, 12:27:16 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you don't remember your password, email me.

New  registration procedures -- Some ISPs have been bouncing the verification emails.  Please email me to be activated or if you have any problems.  Click Contact Us above.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Jockey Price Change  (Read 5954 times)
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2007, 10:52:53 PM »

Sorry for my late reply Ed but I have been out of town a lot lately trying to make money so I can afford to pay for my horses!

At the last ITHA meeting we were all informed that this was a test case as Illinois has the most vague oversight of this issue. If they were to go to another state where someone had specific responsibility of this issue Illinois could say we do not have such oversight and therefore you need to find some other way to get your fees raised.

By the way FYI Rene Douglas refused to sign the letter which demanded the increase and threaten a strike.

Here is the problem the jocks face. No one BUT the owners individually can approve a rate increase. No one else has the authority to do so on the owners behalf. It is not covered in the ITHA bylaws, it is not covered by the IRB and they want no part of it, and it is not addressed in any part of the racing law either. As independent contractors,the jocks must deal with this issue on a mount to mount basis IF they want to increase fees. Or a new law must be passed or the bylaws of the ITHA must be amended. Also in the state of Illinois the Guild cannot file suits so the current action will be (may have already been) tossed out. On top of that as I stated before the ITHA has no standing as they have no authority to spend the owners money, so this is another reason why any current action will get tossed. The jocks were told this and were also told that they need to contact every owner, to date I still have not received any letter or notice, nor have others that I have asked. As usual those representing the jocks have no clue as to what they are doing or how to proceed in an intelligent way to achieve their goals. The Guild is and always has been a poorly run organization. All they are going to do or have already done is piss off the owners, the same owners who pay them! All they had to do is write a nicely done letter to all owners explaining why they wanted to raise their fees and ask the owner to send a reply card back to them either voting yes or no to the increase. Instead they try to bully their increase down everyones throats and like spoiled children threaten that if they do not get their way they will strike......as if no other riders would flock here to ride for the exact same money they are now getting paid.......which of course is exactly why they have NOT walked away. The real irony of this is that most owners I have spoken with (and myself included) would have agreed to some sort of increase especially on the daily mount fee. All the jocks have done to this point is shoot themselves in the foot.

To say that having each jock set his on price would lead to much higher fees is not supported by the current facts either. Very often some jocks work out deals or request higher fees to ride a horse that an owner asks him to ride especially if that race is out of town.

Of course it would be nice to pay them on performance, but some would end up not making enough money as some refuse to listen to instructions from the trainers. Not to mention those whose agents have spun trainers at the last minute.

One more note, this IMHO is nothing more than a way to legally have someone responsible for the Guild to go after besides the tracks for insurance coverage. If the ITHA or the IRB were to become LEGALLY responsible for the owners and what money or fees they can be charged the next thing will be that the Guild will try and get the owners to kick in money to pay for covering the Jocks insurance. The Guild may be poorly run, but they can be a sneaky bunch too!

Bottom line is that if the Jocks want to be INDEPENDENT contractors then they need to be INDEPENDENT! They cannot have it both ways. If everyone else is kicking in for insurance etc., then they are no longer independent.
Report to moderator   Logged
glf
Guest

« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2007, 08:56:11 AM »


Here's what I think the jockeys should do - speaking as an owner.

The majority of Jockeys have an agent, and from what I've heard the agent makes about 25% of the jockeys compensation. Some make more and some make less. If the jockeys are independant contractors then they shpould fire their agents and they will make 25% more money per year by handling all of their own affairs. They don't start work until about 1pm (although many arrive at 10 to 11am to hang out, eat, exercise, or use the facilities) and can go home at the latest by 5:30pm so it's a very short day unless they work and exercise horses in the morning, but they also make anywhere from $10 to $20 for every horse that they exercise/work in the morning.

I'm not opposed to a pay increase for the mount fee, but I would only agree to a 20% increase at this time for 4th place through last place. The current pay for first through third is sufficient.

FOR THE LAST TIME BEAU JOCKEYS DO NOT GET PAID FOR MORNING WORKOUTS. If you claim to been around for all these years you should know that by now. If they did get paid to workout your horse you would see that on your monthly bill. If that happened to you I'm feel sorry for you because you are the only one.  The only thing I can say on this matter is that most jocks HAVE to work horses in the mornings. So if they ask for an increase it's deserving most 2 yos running have had many workouts at least half of those works are with a jockey. So if a jockey works 40 horses a week he doesn't get paid for those workouts it's part of the job. As Beau states the jocks just sit around all day. Well would you go out and risk your life going 35 Mph with only a helmut and flack jacket for protection not to mention being followed by an ambulance. Yes it sounds easy then why don't we have more jockeys. The cost of living has increased but the scale of pay has not. So for you owners what do you say when your trainer says I need to increase my day rate you agree and pay it, because if you don't he/she will tell you to move your horse. The trainers pay scale is a very large one any where from 45.00 to 90.00 per day so why can't jocks do the same. Now a days even the exercise people have a pay scale. They charge more at Arlington. People don't adapt to change well especially in the this business. It is an expensive business with to many ups and downs but you know that going in if you don't then you have been misinformed.
realize one thing everything is going up price wise!!
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2007, 09:07:52 AM »

The cost of living has increased but the scale of pay has not.

Neither have purses, which is the only place owners make money at the track. If purses have not increased, why do jockeys deserve a bigger slice of them?

Quote
So for you owners what do you say when your trainer says I need to increase my day rate you agree and pay it, because if you don't he/she will tell you to move your horse. The trainers pay scale is a very large one any where from 45.00 to 90.00 per day so why can't jocks do the same.

If I don't like the price my trainer charges, I can change trainers. This is some of us are suggesting, a free market for jocks, where owners can pick and choose on price if they'd like. The jocks have proposed a one size fits all fee schedule.
Report to moderator   Logged
BeauNarro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2801

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.....


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2007, 09:19:24 AM »

glahn and g (probably the same person)

Show me where I ever said that the jockey's "only" just sit around all day?

If you read all my posts in this thread, I said that they do alot of normal stuff besides riding which I realize is a dangerous job. I also stated that I as an owner would agree to a reasonable increase for 4th place through last place.

The jockeys (some of them) BTW do get paid for morning workouts. They are paid by the trainer through his daily fee, and from my understanding it's an "under the table" agreement. Many of the jockeys also show up in the morning as "exercise riders" where they are paid at the same rate as the other guys/gals. Now tell me again that I'm wrong about this, and I will personally bring you out to the track and show you by talking with a variety of trainers, owners and jockeys.
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2007, 09:26:50 AM »

Sorry for my late reply Ed but I have been out of town a lot lately trying to make money so I can afford to pay for my horses!

At the last ITHA meeting we were all informed that this was a test case as Illinois has the most vague oversight of this issue. If they were to go to another state where someone had specific responsibility of this issue Illinois could say we do not have such oversight and therefore you need to find some other way to get your fees raised.

By the way FYI Rene Douglas refused to sign the letter which demanded the increase and threaten a strike.

Here is the problem the jocks face. No one BUT the owners individually can approve a rate increase. No one else has the authority to do so on the owners behalf. It is not covered in the ITHA bylaws, it is not covered by the IRB and they want no part of it, and it is not addressed in any part of the racing law either. As independent contractors,the jocks must deal with this issue on a mount to mount basis IF they want to increase fees. Or a new law must be passed or the bylaws of the ITHA must be amended. Also in the state of Illinois the Guild cannot file suits so the current action will be (may have already been) tossed out. On top of that as I stated before the ITHA has no standing as they have no authority to spend the owners money, so this is another reason why any current action will get tossed. The jocks were told this and were also told that they need to contact every owner, to date I still have not received any letter or notice, nor have others that I have asked. As usual those representing the jocks have no clue as to what they are doing or how to proceed in an intelligent way to achieve their goals. The Guild is and always has been a poorly run organization. All they are going to do or have already done is piss off the owners, the same owners who pay them! All they had to do is write a nicely done letter to all owners explaining why they wanted to raise their fees and ask the owner to send a reply card back to them either voting yes or no to the increase. Instead they try to bully their increase down everyones throats and like spoiled children threaten that if they do not get their way they will strike......as if no other riders would flock here to ride for the exact same money they are now getting paid.......which of course is exactly why they have NOT walked away. The real irony of this is that most owners I have spoken with (and myself included) would have agreed to some sort of increase especially on the daily mount fee. All the jocks have done to this point is shoot themselves in the foot.

To say that having each jock set his on price would lead to much higher fees is not supported by the current facts either. Very often some jocks work out deals or request higher fees to ride a horse that an owner asks him to ride especially if that race is out of town.

Of course it would be nice to pay them on performance, but some would end up not making enough money as some refuse to listen to instructions from the trainers. Not to mention those whose agents have spun trainers at the last minute.

One more note, this IMHO is nothing more than a way to legally have someone responsible for the Guild to go after besides the tracks for insurance coverage. If the ITHA or the IRB were to become LEGALLY responsible for the owners and what money or fees they can be charged the next thing will be that the Guild will try and get the owners to kick in money to pay for covering the Jocks insurance. The Guild may be poorly run, but they can be a sneaky bunch too!

Bottom line is that if the Jocks want to be INDEPENDENT contractors then they need to be INDEPENDENT! They cannot have it both ways. If everyone else is kicking in for insurance etc., then they are no longer independent.

A thoughtful reply and timely enough.

I skimmed it this AM. I promise I will read it more closely. On the surface (and I really only briefly skimmed it, pardon me) is Solis publicly stated, when he took Manley and Jackson on (or at the time thereabouts), there would be no strikes and in regard to strikes, well, they're probably not central to the issue by-and-large.

I'll read it more closely but aspects of it, your prospective in particular, appears to me to be a fiction.

I promise I'll review it as soon as I have more time.
Report to moderator   Logged
glahn
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2523




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2007, 09:42:16 AM »

glahn and g (probably the same person)

If you cannot see the stylistic differences, you're hopeless.
Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2007, 10:47:27 AM »

People don't adapt to change well especially in the this business. It is an expensive business with to many ups and downs but you know that going in if you don't then you have been misinformed.
realize one thing everything is going up price wise!!

g,

You gave some good advice above, except that applies to everyone in the industry, owners, trainers, jockeys, and anyone else that is employed in racing. The only thing you have wrong is that everything is not going up price wise. I'm looking at some older win pictures; 7/23/2000 ALW NW1 OT with a purse of  $34,000. Today that same race has a purse of $30,500. On 8/22/2002 a $14,000 claiming race had a purse of $19,000 and today that same purse is $15,500. On 3/30/2002 a $10,000 claiming race had a purse of $17,000 and today it is $14,500. As you can see, everything does not go up price wise and claimers of $25,000 or less for the most part are owned by working people who are not independently wealthy and can not afford to give everyone a living which is why several people I know, including people who introduced me to horse ownership, are out of the business. As a matter of fact this will probably be my last year of multiple horse ownership. One horse will be plenty. Riding is a dangerous profession and I respect all the riders who get on the back's of these large magnificent animals and I hope someday they make a ton of money. The problem is my pockets are not deep enough to absorb anymore as its getting tougher and tougher to have staying power. When trainers raise their rates I move my horses to someone with a rate structure I can live with. I like every trainer who has trained for me in the past and still get along with them and would not hesitate to give them my horses under different circumstances. The changes have always been financial decisions with the exception of one person who should not even be licensed in my opinion.
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2007, 02:51:12 PM »

Sorry for my late reply Ed but I have been out of town a lot lately trying to make money so I can afford to pay for my horses!

At the last ITHA meeting we were all informed that this was a test case as Illinois has the most vague oversight of this issue. If they were to go to another state where someone had specific responsibility of this issue Illinois could say we do not have such oversight and therefore you need to find some other way to get your fees raised.

By the way FYI Rene Douglas refused to sign the letter which demanded the increase and threaten a strike.

Here is the problem the jocks face. No one BUT the owners individually can approve a rate increase. No one else has the authority to do so on the owners behalf. It is not covered in the ITHA bylaws, it is not covered by the IRB and they want no part of it, and it is not addressed in any part of the racing law either. As independent contractors,the jocks must deal with this issue on a mount to mount basis IF they want to increase fees. Or a new law must be passed or the bylaws of the ITHA must be amended. Also in the state of Illinois the Guild cannot file suits so the current action will be (may have already been) tossed out. On top of that as I stated before the ITHA has no standing as they have no authority to spend the owners money, so this is another reason why any current action will get tossed. The jocks were told this and were also told that they need to contact every owner, to date I still have not received any letter or notice, nor have others that I have asked. As usual those representing the jocks have no clue as to what they are doing or how to proceed in an intelligent way to achieve their goals. The Guild is and always has been a poorly run organization. All they are going to do or have already done is piss off the owners, the same owners who pay them! All they had to do is write a nicely done letter to all owners explaining why they wanted to raise their fees and ask the owner to send a reply card back to them either voting yes or no to the increase. Instead they try to bully their increase down everyones throats and like spoiled children threaten that if they do not get their way they will strike......as if no other riders would flock here to ride for the exact same money they are now getting paid.......which of course is exactly why they have NOT walked away. The real irony of this is that most owners I have spoken with (and myself included) would have agreed to some sort of increase especially on the daily mount fee. All the jocks have done to this point is shoot themselves in the foot.

To say that having each jock set his on price would lead to much higher fees is not supported by the current facts either. Very often some jocks work out deals or request higher fees to ride a horse that an owner asks him to ride especially if that race is out of town.

Of course it would be nice to pay them on performance, but some would end up not making enough money as some refuse to listen to instructions from the trainers. Not to mention those whose agents have spun trainers at the last minute.

One more note, this IMHO is nothing more than a way to legally have someone responsible for the Guild to go after besides the tracks for insurance coverage. If the ITHA or the IRB were to become LEGALLY responsible for the owners and what money or fees they can be charged the next thing will be that the Guild will try and get the owners to kick in money to pay for covering the Jocks insurance. The Guild may be poorly run, but they can be a sneaky bunch too!

Bottom line is that if the Jocks want to be INDEPENDENT contractors then they need to be INDEPENDENT! They cannot have it both ways. If everyone else is kicking in for insurance etc., then they are no longer independent.

Jim, you made three or four points -

Exactly, because the guild has NO authority here, that's exactly why the case was brought HERE.

I'll return to address more of what you say later, if that's alright.

Report to moderator   Logged
pamwaggy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 8226




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2007, 03:18:01 PM »

This forum is the best. 

I've learned more here than I've ever learned about this sport.

Report to moderator   Logged
Jim C
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1403




Ignore
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2007, 03:50:20 PM »

No Problem Ed, take your time, I am interested to see what you feel is fiction.

You did say that the reason the action was brought here was because the Guild has no authority here. I do not think that is the case, in fact they were surprised to find that they cannot (by law) take legal action here on behalf of the jocks. And if they did know this why did they try to do so in the first place only to be told they cannot?

The reason as I stated that this was done here is because no one right now except the INDIVIDUAL owners can legally approve any increase in mount fees.
Report to moderator   Logged
glahn
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2523




Ignore
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2007, 08:45:26 AM »

mel4600:

20 years ago a jockey paid hi valet $5 per losing mount, $10 per winning. It could be more nowadays. Nevertheless, $45 per mount less valet, less agent, doesn't equate to much.
Report to moderator   Logged
ChitownSteve75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3392




Ignore
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2007, 09:02:21 AM »

10,000 Claiming Race: PROPOSED

10% for Win plus $100 mount fee
5% for second plus $100 mount fee
5% for third plus $100 mount fee

Alternate has:

2% for 4th place plus $80 mount fee
2% for 5th place plus $80 mount fee

PURSES GOING DOWN, FEES GOING UP. Time to get out of the biz as a small owner. Only the Kenneth Ramseys, Mary Lou Whitney, and Michael Tabors of the world will own horses. I guess this is truley the SPORT OF KINGS, and Kings only! 

Report to moderator   Logged

ZENYATTA THE GREAT! NOT RA!
ABBY
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 256




Ignore
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2007, 10:38:18 AM »

Jim, you made three or four points -

Exactly, because the guild has NO authority here, that's exactly why the case was brought HERE.

I'll return to address more of what you say later, if that's alright.


  IT WOULD BE A VERY GOOD IDEA IF THE ITHA AN IRB STAYED OUT OF IT. DID ANYONE ASK FOR A COPY OF THE GUILD'S AUDIT THE PAST FEW YEARS? GUILD MANAGEMENT STATED THEY PUT UP ALOT OF $$, DID ANYONE ASK TO SEE PROOF OF THAT?
Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
Guest

« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2007, 12:49:39 PM »

Not sure what you mean, Abby.
Report to moderator   Logged
BDHPlayer
Newbie
*
Posts: 41




Ignore
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2007, 10:50:20 PM »

Guess that it is time for me to get out of the business.  Essentially been losing money for the last 16 years.

At the present time, jockeys get paid for performance.  They don't perform, tough luck.  They perform, they get paid very well for 10 minutes of work.

Plenty of occupations are dangerous.  Ask the guy that works in the coal mine for a lot less dollars.

They want more pay, get purses to increase.  Illinois needs to get off its duff and increase the purses and increase the piece of the pie that goes to everyone.

Since the start of the meet, Mojica has been riding my horse.  I don't have any idea where he stands on this.  However a jock fee of $100 per mount on top of vet bills to run and purses only getting paid down to 5th place is too much of a burden.

Last month purse earnings were $300 and bills across the country were almost $10,000.  Part of that were broodmares that will have the foals sold as yearlings and not raced.  I'm going to let someone else take the risk.

Of course I'll be a lot happier if the first time starter that I have a piece of wins at Arlington tomorrow.
Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
Guest

« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2007, 10:52:15 PM »

Of course I'll be a lot happier if the first time starter that I have a piece of wins at Arlington tomorrow.

Long time, no hear from. Was that a tout?
Report to moderator   Logged
Moon
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 11005

My new motto: Remain Vertical!




Ignore
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2007, 07:36:56 AM »

It is CUSTOMARY to NAME your horse, so that we can all get in on the action, BDH!

maroon

 Good luck!
beer beer beer
Report to moderator   Logged
David
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 863




Ignore
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2007, 09:19:59 AM »

It is CUSTOMARY to NAME your horse, so that we can all get in on the action, BDH!

maroon

 Good luck!
beer beer beer

See the Arlington Wednesday thread
Report to moderator   Logged
BDHPlayer
Newbie
*
Posts: 41




Ignore
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2007, 10:49:44 PM »

Saved you money.  She certainly showed some speed out of the gate but tired.  Shouldn't have surprised me since Dee doesn't push her horses.  I've always believed in racing the horse to get it tight.  Maybe next time.


It is CUSTOMARY to NAME your horse, so that we can all get in on the action, BDH!

maroon

 Good luck!
beer beer beer
Report to moderator   Logged
vcackerman
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 630




Ignore
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2007, 11:44:05 PM »

Just curious - was it Dark Halo?  I saw that race and thought she might have liked to have someone run with her because when she got challenged she just went backwards.  Good luck next time out!
Report to moderator   Logged
mel4600
Guest

« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2007, 09:29:02 AM »

Saved you money.  She certainly showed some speed out of the gate but tired.  Shouldn't have surprised me since Dee doesn't push her horses.  I've always believed in racing the horse to get it tight.  Maybe next time.



Your horse ran a nice race considering she had to come out of the 1 hole in her first start. I put a few bucks on her and will do so next time. I think she will perform even a lot better with this one under her belt.
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.257 seconds with 16 queries.

Home
Upcoming events
Breeders' Cup
Horse slaughter in IL
Racing TV schedule
News Updates
Legislation

Galloping Out

Previous stories

Arlington
Balmoral
Hawthorne
Maywood
Chicago Sun-Times
Chicago Tribune
Blood-Horse
Daily Racing Form
Thoroughbred Times
Harness Link
Illinois Racing Board

 

2014

Breeders' Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2013

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

2012

Breeders' Cup
Hawthorne Gold Cup
Arlington Million
Triple Crown
Illinois Derby

More ebay items

 

Home | News Updates | Bloggers | Forums | Search
Resources | Links | Marketplace | Gallery | Advertising | Contact Us

Copyright © 2000-2014 Chicago Barn to Wire. All rights reserved.
Privacy policy