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Author Topic: Jockey Price Change  (Read 5955 times)
edwarren
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2007, 11:32:01 AM »

If this was a real court you'd be way bounced.

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edwarren
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2007, 11:35:25 AM »

Now, I'm lost track of the thread, you  maroon I'm still trying to get over racing being communist and that all jocks are paid the same.  Shocked


They're racing. Gotta go.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 12:50:34 PM by edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2007, 12:05:22 PM »

I don't see a lawsuit here. All I see is a memo. Why are you showing me a memo and telling me it's a lawsuit?

I didn't say the memo was a lawsuit. I said it told the facts of the "case" under discussion, which includes brief mentions of a lawsuit brought by the jocks, as well as the proposed schedules of riding fees, one of which is labeled "current suit". My comment to you about facts was specifically about the fee schedule, which you obviously didn't know.

It's time for you to go to "ignore" for some time out, Ed. You are incoherent at best. I'll check back in a few months to see if you've cleaned up from whatever you are on this morning.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 12:08:59 PM by CLOCKERTERRY » Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2007, 12:08:50 PM »

The memo is not the facts of the case. It is simply a memo.


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edwarren
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »


Maybe you should read the facts of this case so you have some clue what you're talking about.

http://www.itharacing.com/NewsArchive/2007-07-18JockeySuitNotice.pdf

A memo isn't the facts of a case. It is simply a memo.

Terry, put me on ignore. It'll save me the trouble of responding to your comments.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 12:31:48 PM by edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2007, 01:12:27 PM »

I agree with that. If you want Rene Douglas, pay the Rene Douglas asking price. If you're happy with someone else who charges less, that's fine, too. Everyone getting paid the same is communist. If they all get together and make the same price schedule, we could sue them for price fixing.  Cheesy


See this is how the issue became confused. This is extraneous and not central to the lawsuit as you say is described in the memo. You argue against the memo and then ask me to consider it? Why'd you do that?


Terry you can't point the finger at me and then have it both ways. Frequently, you're guilty of this when arguing.


I'll stick to my original point. Your comments extraneous to the memo are short-sighted. The "free enterprise" you support will result in a huge increase in fees.

You know, companies and economies still go bankrupt under free enterprise and free markets. It's not a guaranteed cure-all, you'd hope foolish people will believe.

In otherwords which point do you want me to argue, the memo, or your comment?

Don't expect us to let you have it both ways. And don't respond with I'm incoherent. It's your thinking that's undisciplined. Refrain from answering my posts? I welcome it. It'll spare me your complicated attempt to trick me into putting my foot in my mouth as well as your reactive comments and interuptions.










« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 01:23:24 PM by edwarren » Report to moderator   Logged
edwarren
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2007, 01:26:50 PM »

Bump.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2007, 08:09:42 PM »

Here's what I think the jockeys should do - speaking as an owner.

The majority of Jockeys have an agent, and from what I've heard the agent makes about 25% of the jockeys compensation. Some make more and some make less. If the jockeys are independant contractors then they shpould fire their agents and they will make 25% more money per year by handling all of their own affairs. They don't start work until about 1pm (although many arrive at 10 to 11am to hang out, eat, exercise, or use the facilities) and can go home at the latest by 5:30pm so it's a very short day unless they work and exercise horses in the morning, but they also make anywhere from $10 to $20 for every horse that they exercise/work in the morning.

I'm not opposed to a pay increase for the mount fee, but I would only agree to a 20% increase at this time for 4th place through last place. The current pay for first through third is sufficient.
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mel4600
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2007, 09:21:38 PM »

What I heard about this issue is similar to Jim C, that the jockey guild is using this as a test case to take this nationwide. I also heard that they were considering a strike if they don't get their way and that if they do strike that Churchill will invoke their "private property" rights and ban all striking jockeys for life from all their tracks. I also heard that the jockeys are extremely divided on this issue with the more successful jockeys (Albarado, Douglas, Emigh, etc.) wanting no part of this.
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glahn
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2007, 07:59:04 AM »

You are probably right, though when they're litigating for a 100% increase in mount fees, PLUS mount fees in addition to percent of purses won, I think it's time to start looking in other directions. 100 horses a day, 5 days a week, say averaging the middle $55 increase, that's a lot of additional money taken away from owners.

The second proposed schedule is a little more realistic IMHO, but that's not the one being litigated. I could live with it, but I don't send out two or three horses a day like some owners.

BOOOOO HOOOO. THE POOOOOOOR POOOOOR HORSE OWNERS WILL SUFFER!
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glahn
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2007, 08:05:57 AM »

Here's what I think the jockeys should do - speaking as an owner.

The majority of Jockeys have an agent, and from what I've heard the agent makes about 25% of the jockeys compensation. Some make more and some make less. If the jockeys are independant contractors then they shpould fire their agents and they will make 25% more money per year by handling all of their own affairs. They don't start work until about 1pm (although many arrive at 10 to 11am to hang out, eat, exercise, or use the facilities) and can go home at the latest by 5:30pm so it's a very short day unless they work and exercise horses in the morning, but they also make anywhere from $10 to $20 for every horse that they exercise/work in the morning.

I'm not opposed to a pay increase for the mount fee, but I would only agree to a 20% increase at this time for 4th place through last place. The current pay for first through third is sufficient.

So you propose that jockeys, in addition to being around for morning workouts and riding all day, should also know every horse on the ground so they can make the best decision on who to ride, hustle trainers, take entries, etc. etc. So basically you're proposing a work shift that would in all likelihood be from sun-up to sun-down.

Most jockeys are not just "hanging out" all day, by the way.

And to everyone else who is talking, quite ignorantly, about this topic: do some damned research. After equipment, agent, valet, etc., the amount of money a journeyman rider makes isn't all that much. Not enough to piss away their money on owning horses and then whine about fees.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2007, 08:09:14 AM »

And to everyone else who is talking, quite ignorantly, about this topic: do some damned research. After equipment, agent, valet, etc., the amount of money a journeyman rider makes isn't all that much. Not enough to piss away their money on owning horses and then whine about fees.

BOOOO HOOOO HOOOO! The poor poor jockeys!
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mel4600
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2007, 08:41:44 AM »

So you propose that jockeys, in addition to being around for morning workouts and riding all day, should also know every horse on the ground so they can make the best decision on who to ride, hustle trainers, take entries, etc. etc. So basically you're proposing a work shift that would in all likelihood be from sun-up to sun-down.

Most jockeys are not just "hanging out" all day, by the way.

And to everyone else who is talking, quite ignorantly, about this topic: do some damned research. After equipment, agent, valet, etc., the amount of money a journeyman rider makes isn't all that much. Not enough to piss away their money on owning horses and then whine about fees.

How much do you think an average owner makes on his horses a month after all their expenses? Why do you think an average owner has money to burn? Why don't you educate the ignorant owners on how much a jockey invests on his equipment? Does he still get paid when he gives you a shitty ride or gets disqualified from a win? As a matter of fact what is considered a bad losing year (monetary value) for a journeyman jockey? I am all for them to get paid what the market will bear and not try to ram anything down someones throat when you are considered "independent contractors". Heed your own advice about speaking ignorantly before you criticize others.
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ABBY
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2007, 08:52:02 AM »

BOOOO HOOOO HOOOO! The poor poor jockeys!
  These guys can make cuts and get out there themselves and hustle mounts. The agents just play around with the trainers anyway and the OWNER usually gets spun around. Most O/T probably could negoiate if the riders stayed here all year round (few do), that should be a major stipulation of the suit. You want the $$, then race here all year round, instead of just picking Illinois to test your case.  Please try this in KY, Saratoga and at Gulfstream asap.
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glahn
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2007, 09:52:27 AM »

How much do you think an average owner makes on his horses a month after all their expenses? Why do you think an average owner has money to burn? Why don't you educate the ignorant owners on how much a jockey invests on his equipment? Does he still get paid when he gives you a shitty ride or gets disqualified from a win? As a matter of fact what is considered a bad losing year (monetary value) for a journeyman jockey? I am all for them to get paid what the market will bear and not try to ram anything down someones throat when you are considered "independent contractors". Heed your own advice about speaking ignorantly before you criticize others.

I'd say on average an owner of a horse loses several hundred dollars, perhaps a thousand or so, per month when all is said and done. The difference, of course, is that a jockey is being a jockey TO MAKE A LIVING whereas if anyone thought they could make a living by owning racehorses they should be redirected to the insane asylum.

Does a baseball player still get paid when he strikes out? Next we'll be hearing about those troubled baseball team owners and the hardships they have to endure for the game.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2007, 10:06:48 AM »

I'd say on average an owner of a horse loses several hundred dollars, perhaps a thousand or so, per month when all is said and done. The difference, of course, is that a jockey is being a jockey TO MAKE A LIVING whereas if anyone thought they could make a living by owning racehorses they should be redirected to the insane asylum.

I don't think anyone begrudges the jocks a living. I'm sure they have their increasing expenses like everyone, especially medical. It's the demand for a 100% + fee increase and taking that to court that's the garbage. You might think owners are made of money to piss away creating a living for professional racetrackers including jockeys, and it's no big deal, but I don't know any owner who wants to lose MORE money than he's losing now. Most would rather not lose any money at all! There's a reason so many owners get out of the game and there's always a need for "new owners". It's because the professional racetrackers, including jockeys, strip their mad money funds bare.
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mel4600
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2007, 10:39:32 AM »

I'd say on average an owner of a horse loses several hundred dollars, perhaps a thousand or so, per month when all is said and done. The difference, of course, is that a jockey is being a jockey TO MAKE A LIVING whereas if anyone thought they could make a living by owning racehorses they should be redirected to the insane asylum.

Does a baseball player still get paid when he strikes out? Next we'll be hearing about those troubled baseball team owners and the hardships they have to endure for the game.

No one is owed a living at someone else's expense. Lots of people wanted to be baseball players including yours truly, however, reality set in and I figured out I had to do something else for a living. "Independent Contractors" get paid what they are worth, I know, I am one.
If they can't cut it as jockeys maybe they can be exercise riders in the morning and make a living. Owners don't try to make a living, however, they don't want to lose a lot of money either, staying close to break even would be outstanding. The successful jockeys make more money than you and me combined.
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edwarren
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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2007, 11:14:56 AM »

Mel, you're all right, I agree with you more often than not, we only disagree over a few things really.

So this is my last word in the matter. I apologize if I have offended anyone. I know I can be extremely obnoxious especially when I'm stressed over one thing or another.

Anyway, it's bad news for the little guy - who's in court and at a time when he can least afford it, as usual.

In America, courts ONLY recognize debits and credits, essentially black-robe-wearing bankers. The word bench  "approach the bench" comes from an Italian word banco means "bank".

In this case, what's happened could only happen when a party or parties exist that can withstand a judgement of one way or the other Otherwise, this case never would have been brought. In time, what seem like small things will snowball into big things when courts are involved

Good luck in court, you will not find equity (natural right) in court. They are chancery courts, debit and credit, decided by a banker.

I asked Jim C. how he heard this was a test case and haven't got a reply. I have a personal nickname for him "the Count" and he is shifty as a priest changing parishes, always lurking.

A test case - someone needs a case.


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mel4600
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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2007, 11:27:24 AM »

Mel, you're all right, I agree with you more often than not, we only disagree over a few things really.

So this is my last word in the matter. I apologize if I have offended anyone. I know I can be extremely obnoxious especially when I'm stressed over one thing or another.

Anyway, it's bad news for the little guy - who's in court and at a time when he can least afford it, as usual.

In America, courts ONLY recognize debits and credits, essentially black-robe-wearing bankers. The word bench  "approach the bench" comes from an Italian word banco means "bank".

In this case, what's happened could only happen when a party or parties exist that can withstand a judgement of one way or the other Otherwise, this case never would have been brought. In time, what seem like small things will snowball into big things when courts are involved

Good luck in court, you will not find equity (natural right) in court. They are chancery courts, debit and credit, decided by a banker.

I asked Jim C. how he heard this was a test case and haven't got a reply. I have a personal nickname for him "the Count" and he is shifty as a priest changing parishes, always lurking.

A test case - someone needs a case.




Edwarren,

Your opinion does matter so please don't restrict your thoughts or comments. I agree with you that this should not be in court. Beau or Terry suggested that all jocks should post their rates for all to see and owners and trainers can hire whoever they want. This way the bookkeeper also has a copy to debit and credit accordingly. Your opinion is always appreciated.
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sodgod
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« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2007, 12:29:57 PM »

Can some one explain to me what the jockey agent and valet do that merits their slice of the pie.  The jockeys are giving up a lot of their take for what is return?  I'm not saying that they are not needed just trying to understand their roles in all of this.  Are there any jockeys who do not have either of these people helping them or is is mandated some how i.e. by the state/track?

Thanks, Sod
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2007, 02:26:48 PM »

So you propose that jockeys, in addition to being around for morning workouts and riding all day, should also know every horse on the ground so they can make the best decision on who to ride, hustle trainers, take entries, etc. etc. So basically you're proposing a work shift that would in all likelihood be from sun-up to sun-down.

Most jockeys are not just "hanging out" all day, by the way.

And to everyone else who is talking, quite ignorantly, about this topic: do some damned research. After equipment, agent, valet, etc., the amount of money a journeyman rider makes isn't all that much. Not enough to piss away their money on owning horses and then whine about fees.

Unless you are allowed into the jockeys room at any time during the day or if you are a jockey yourself - then you have NO IDEA what the jockeys do all day. I do know. I watched and talked and joked around with the jockeys every single day for almost 10 years while I worked at Hawthorne.
Some of them start early to exercise or workout horses. Then they either go home for a few hours or go over to the main building. At any rate most of the jockeys arrive at the jocks room at about 11am. Very few of them will use the exercise room where the track supplies really nice exercise equipment (which I purchased through Tommy Juniors instructions). Many will go and sit in the steam or sauna rooms for quite a long time to try to keep their weight down. Then they will have Freddy give them a massage. Then they will take a shower. Until it's race time they sit around, talk, read, eat, sleep, etc. Most Jockeys leave shortly after the last horse that they are scheduled to ride for the day. They almost all take a shower before they leave to go home. If a jockey has 4 mounts for the day, and his last scheduled mount is in the 5th race - he's gone by race number 6...
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« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2007, 07:43:34 PM »

Did you ever just sit around with jockeys and eat and eat and eat? Pig out on one thing after another? That would be nasty.

maroon
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mel4600
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« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2007, 08:50:34 PM »

Can some one explain to me what the jockey agent and valet do that merits their slice of the pie.  The jockeys are giving up a lot of their take for what is return?  I'm not saying that they are not needed just trying to understand their roles in all of this.  Are there any jockeys who do not have either of these people helping them or is is mandated some how i.e. by the state/track?

Thanks, Sod

Sod,

A jockey agent is the person who hustles mounts for their riders so they can consentrate on what makes them money which is riding. They are also instrumental in scheduling all their morning works to maximise their time and income. Some are very good at what they do and have good  longstanding relationships with a lot of trainers while others are a waste of money. I guess its like anything else. A good agent for the most part is largely responsible for the jockeys success. As far as the valet service goes, to the best of my knowledge, is a service provided by the race track and costs the jockeys nothing. Maybe Glahn who brought this up as a major expense has a different explanation on what this service costs the riders.
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Thomas Graham
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« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2007, 08:57:18 PM »

The valet has two functions, one for which is employed by the track and one for which he is employed by a jockey (usually several jockeys).

The track function is to saddle and unsaddle horses.  The valet is assigned to a horse by the clerk of scales.  The best way to describe it is to say each valet has a number and the clerk of scales will number, in order, the day's entire program after early scratches --- so if the 1st race has eight, valets 1-8 saddle those horses, valet #9 saddles the 1 in the second race and so on.  The valet in this case may end up saddling a horse not ridden by one of his riders.  I believe valets are union and paid by the track for this function - if I am wrong, someone please correct me.

The jockey-employed function is to get each of his riders tack ready for each race and to keep the tack clean and organized, etc.  For this function, the jockey pays his valet a percentage of earnings. Again, if this has changed since the last time I asked a valet about this, someone please correct me.

TJG
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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2007, 10:36:53 PM »

Unless you are allowed into the jockeys room at any time during the day or if you are a jockey yourself - then you have NO IDEA what the jockeys do all day. I do know. I watched and talked and joked around with the jockeys every single day for almost 10 years while I worked at Hawthorne.

I've spent a good amount of time in the jock's room. Nevermind that a close relative of mine was a jockey in Chicago for 20 years and that some close friends of mine are jockeys and jockey's agents--I don't know what I'm talking about.

Thomas Graham gave a good description of a valet's duties. mel4600: To get an exact number for you, I'll ask someone and get back to you.
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