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Author Topic: Slot racing  (Read 2173 times)
jrstark
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« on: January 02, 2006, 01:27:28 AM »

MONTICELLO MANAGEMENT RENEGES
Posted by News Room 09:25 PM 01-Jan-2006 CST

The management at Monticello Raceway, empowered by their collection of lucrative slots money pursuant to legislation established to help the racing industry, has decided that it has no obligation to pay any monies from VLT revenue to the Monticello harness horsemen.

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=33027
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Les Moore
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2006, 02:57:55 AM »

Thanks Jannine. As I stated in a previous post, mangment is bringing down this great sport and fast. I'm almost to the point that I think its being done on purpose instead of stupidity. They are grabbing everything they can now and not thinking of the future. Its sickening how they are thumbing their noses at the bettors and horesemen. It looks like they are getting casinos under the assumption of helping the horsemen. Once they get them they want to shut down racing and just operate the casino. They are using the horsemen to enrich themselves.
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race track phil
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2006, 03:19:03 AM »

         les ,            I told some friends of mine a year ago just about what your saying now . maywood does'nt want to negotiate with the horsemen because they want to run the sport in the ground so they can appeal to the state that were broke and the horsemen are broke we need the slots to exist . but if they get them in time they will try to phase racing out . I will guarantee they wont be fighting for dates ! the plan is suffer a little now and get rich when they get slots . the horsemen better make a deal signed in blood if the slots come someday where they cant phase racing out in the future . I went to maywood today and like a dummy I was sitting in my booth waiting for los al after santa anita . lucky I decided to cash a voucher in ! I'm the only only person in the track except for security . nobody ever came over and said were closing . but the point being they did'nt even want to stay open for los al . its all a big plan to plead poverty ! who gets hurt the loyal gambler and the horsemen with small stables and all the grooms who will be out of work . the big stables will move on . but the little guy might as well look for another job !
                                         RTP
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fineline
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2006, 07:27:46 AM »

Totally agree
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2006, 07:56:37 AM »

         les ,            I told some friends of mine a year ago just about what your saying now . maywood does'nt want to negotiate with the horsemen because they want to run the sport in the ground so they can appeal to the state that were broke and the horsemen are broke we need the slots to exist . but if they get them in time they will try to phase racing out . I will guarantee they wont be fighting for dates ! the plan is suffer a little now and get rich when they get slots . the horsemen better make a deal signed in blood if the slots come someday where they cant phase racing out in the future . I went to maywood today and like a dummy I was sitting in my booth waiting for los al after santa anita . lucky I decided to cash a voucher in ! I'm the only only person in the track except for security . nobody ever came over and said were closing . but the point being they did'nt even want to stay open for los al . its all a big plan to plead poverty ! who gets hurt the loyal gambler and the horsemen with small stables and all the grooms who will be out of work . the big stables will move on . but the little guy might as well look for another job !
                                         RTP

BINGO.

Throw a date of maybe 2010 on that article, replace Monticello with Maywood and Balmoral, and then sprinkle the Johnstons in there a little.  Hello Chicago...

Slots ARE NOT the savior.  A necessary evil, maybe...but the sport needs to be improved along with the addition of the slot subsidies -- because one day -- they may be gone again.

Just an interesting note: I found a Horseman and Fair World issue from 1995, with results in the back.  Dover Downs -- on Saturday -- had a high purse...of $1,500.  The open (on Sunday) went for $2,000.  That shows the power of slots.  BUT, this stuff at Monticello shows the evils.

Best,
EW
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Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
njhorseman
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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2006, 09:08:35 AM »

MONTICELLO MANAGEMENT RENEGES
Posted by News Room 09:25 PM 01-Jan-2006 CST

The management at Monticello Raceway, empowered by their collection of lucrative slots money pursuant to legislation established to help the racing industry, has decided that it has no obligation to pay any monies from VLT revenue to the Monticello harness horsemen.

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=33027


I hope people read the actual article you provide the link to, because the statement above is simply not accurate, even if it is a direct quote from the press release.

Monticello management has not " decided that it has no obligation to pay any monies from VLT revenue to the Monticello harness horsemen," but rather, according to the horsemen, management has reneged on an alleged agreement to pay a higher percentage of VLT revenue to the horsemen in return for their assistance in lobbying for the VLT legislation. The horsemen say they are entitled to 9.25% of the VLT revenues, but management is only paying them 7.5%.

The problem in New York is that in order for the VLT legislation to be constitutional, it had to be amended to exclude specific revenue guarantees to the horsemen. Under the lottery law, only the lottery "vendors" (which in this case means the racetracks) can be guaranteed a specific percentage of the revenue. This put the horsemen in the position of having to negotiate agreements with the racetracks for their cut of the pie. According to Monticello's horsemen, that track has reneged on whatever "gentleman's agreement" it made when it came time to write the formal contractual agreement.
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2006, 09:32:08 AM »

         les ,            I told some friends of mine a year ago just about what your saying now . maywood does'nt want to negotiate with the horsemen because they want to run the sport in the ground so they can appeal to the state that were broke and the horsemen are broke we need the slots to exist . but if they get them in time they will try to phase racing out . I will guarantee they wont be fighting for dates ! the plan is suffer a little now and get rich when they get slots . the horsemen better make a deal signed in blood if the slots come someday where they cant phase racing out in the future . I went to maywood today and like a dummy I was sitting in my booth waiting for los al after santa anita . lucky I decided to cash a voucher in ! I'm the only only person in the track except for security . nobody ever came over and said were closing . but the point being they did'nt even want to stay open for los al . its all a big plan to plead poverty ! who gets hurt the loyal gambler and the horsemen with small stables and all the grooms who will be out of work . the big stables will move on . but the little guy might as well look for another job !
                                         RTP
Phil, I saw this coming because Balmoral announced on Saturday during their card that simulcasting was cut off last night at 7:00 P.M.  You could have stayed at home and fired on Los Al thru offshore and relaxed.  Instead, they treated your loyalty with a slap in the face.  It's just the Gestapo acting cheap, while disguising it as giving employees New Year's night off.  TC
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2006, 10:38:51 AM »

The problem in New York is that in order for the VLT legislation to be constitutional, it had to be amended to exclude specific revenue guarantees to the horsemen. Under the lottery law, only the lottery "vendors" (which in this case means the racetracks) can be guaranteed a specific percentage of the revenue.

First 2001 law had a guaranteed %. Slot opponents filed suit against it on grounds njhorseman said. Ruled unconstitutional in lower court. That held up construction. Law changed to no guaranteed %. Original court decision overturned on appaeal much later. Now assembly could go back to put in guaranteed %. Thats what horsemen should work to.

Article is horsemen press release to. Take details with a grain of salt.   
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2006, 10:50:31 AM »

njhorseman said it before. Florida slot law was passed the same. No guaranteed % for harness horsemen. Same trouble at Pompano in future? Tony was smart to go to state with guaranteed % in law.
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Chitown Stan
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2006, 01:18:20 PM »

Why in the hell wouldn't the horsemen guarantee a set percentage for themselves before the whole thing even got started? It was probably because the horsemen were so desperate that they would take anything over what they were getting before slots. That seems to be the problem. The horsemen are so desperate nowadays that they will take anything. Not really their fault, its the predicament that management has placed them in. I hope Marty Engel and company over at the IHHA has learned from all these mistakes. My Grandpa always told me its better to learn from the mistakes of others.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2006, 02:07:34 PM »

First 2001 law had a guaranteed %. Slot opponents filed suit against it on grounds njhorseman said. Ruled unconstitutional in lower court. That held up construction. Law changed to no guaranteed %. Original court decision overturned on appaeal much later. Now assembly could go back to put in guaranteed %. Thats what horsemen should work to.

Article is horsemen press release to. Take details with a grain of salt.   

You're not 100% accurate . The appeals court upheld the legality of the VLTs as lottery devices and not slot machines, therefore not requiring a constitutional amendment to authorize a new form of gambling. As lottery devices, only the vendor (in this case the racetracks) can directly receive a cut of the VLT income.

The tracks and horsemen went to the legislature and got the original law amended to give the vendors (racetracks) a much bigger cut of the income, giving the tracks the incentive to make the capital investment necessary to construct the slot parlors, as well as make contractual agreements with the horsemen for a cut of the action.

The legislature can not just amend the law to give the horsemen a guaranteed cut. That would require a constitutional amendment.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2006, 03:06:02 PM »

You're not 100% accurate .

The legislature can not just amend the law to give the horsemen a guaranteed cut. That would require a constitutional amendment.

Sure?

The court of appeals upheld the 2001 law in all respects.

"We modify the Appellate Division and declare that Parts
B, C and D of Chapter 383 of the Laws of 2001 are in all respects
constitutional."

"We hold that the reinvestment provision of Part C is
constitutional. The Constitution requires that the net proceeds
from the sale of lottery tickets "shall be applied exclusively to
or in aid or support of education in the state as the legislature
may prescribe" (NY Const, art I, § 9 [1]). "Net proceeds" means
gross proceeds less any appropriate charges and expenses. It is
for the Legislature to determine the necessary expenses incurred
in operation of the lottery and, thus, what remaining portion of
the total lottery revenue will constitute net proceeds. Here,
the Legislature has prescribed that net proceeds consists of all
money remaining after the payment of administrative expenses,
including the vendor fee.

Plaintiffs misapprehend the nature of the reinvested
funds. These moneys are not a separate deduction, beyond other
costs and expenses, from the amount paid to the racetracks as a
vendor fee. Rather, they constitute simply a part of the vendor
fee itself -- but a part whose use the State has decided to
regulate. Thus, with respect to the fees earned by the
racetracks, the State, which heavily regulates the racing
industry, has made a policy determination that the tracks cannot
simply retain as profit their entire fee after payment of costs,
but must reinvest a percentage back in the industry itself."

Discussion Part C redistribution on Page 25.

http://www.nycourts.gov/ctapps/decisions/may05/51opn05.pdf

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njhorseman
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2006, 03:39:53 PM »

Sure?

The court of appeals upheld the 2001 law in all respects.

"We modify the Appellate Division and declare that Parts
B, C and D of Chapter 383 of the Laws of 2001 are in all respects
constitutional."

"We hold that the reinvestment provision of Part C is
constitutional. The Constitution requires that the net proceeds
from the sale of lottery tickets "shall be applied exclusively to
or in aid or support of education in the state as the legislature
may prescribe" (NY Const, art I, § 9 [1]). "Net proceeds" means
gross proceeds less any appropriate charges and expenses. It is
for the Legislature to determine the necessary expenses incurred
in operation of the lottery and, thus, what remaining portion of
the total lottery revenue will constitute net proceeds. Here,
the Legislature has prescribed that net proceeds consists of all
money remaining after the payment of administrative expenses,
including the vendor fee.

Plaintiffs misapprehend the nature of the reinvested
funds. These moneys are not a separate deduction, beyond other
costs and expenses, from the amount paid to the racetracks as a
vendor fee. Rather, they constitute simply a part of the vendor
fee itself -- but a part whose use the State has decided to
regulate. Thus, with respect to the fees earned by the
racetracks, the State, which heavily regulates the racing
industry, has made a policy determination that the tracks cannot
simply retain as profit their entire fee after payment of costs,
but must reinvest a percentage back in the industry itself."

Discussion Part C redistribution on Page 25.

http://www.nycourts.gov/ctapps/decisions/may05/51opn05.pdf



OK...my mistake. I thought the amended law made this moot...but the court said it didn't, and ruled the original version was constitutional regardless. The tracks and horsemen weren't confident that the court would uphold this provision...hence the amended version.

So, it could now be amended again to provide a guarantee for the horsemen, but I doubt they'll be going back hat in hand anytime soon to do so.They called in a lot of markers to make the law "bulletproof" should the court rule against the original. I doubt the legislature and governor are going to look kindly upon yet another amendment when the major players, Yonkers and NYRA, have not even gotten their operations up and running and producing revenue for the state. Let's not forget that this law was passed right after 9/11 when the state was desperate for revenue. They didn't give a hoot about the tracks or horsemen...the state needed the money to pay for court mandated aid to education.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2006, 03:46:45 PM »

Thanks Jannine. As I stated in a previous post, mangment is bringing down this great sport and fast. I'm almost to the point that I think its being done on purpose instead of stupidity. They are grabbing everything they can now and not thinking of the future. Its sickening how they are thumbing their noses at the bettors and horesemen. It looks like they are getting casinos under the assumption of helping the horsemen. Once they get them they want to shut down racing and just operate the casino. They are using the horsemen to enrich themselves.

There you go! This is just what I said months ago would happen. I stated months ago in a post that sooner or later the casino owners were going to get tired of giving money to the horse racing industry. Many more will follow in the furture and the tracks that rely on slots such as Dover will be racing for $1000 all over again.

    If the Illinois horseman think for one minute that slots will save them they have another guest coming to dinner. Casino's and gaming is making harness racing " A DEAD GAME LADDIE ". T-bred racing will always survive but harness racing is in big trouble in the future. Isn't the writing on the wall?  
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2006, 03:47:18 PM »

So, it could now be amended again to provide a guarantee for the horsemen, but I doubt they'll be going back hat in hand anytime soon to do so.

Your right unlikely.

If other tracks start screwing horsemen also assembly might think twice. I heard there was friction at Saratoga Raceway also. Maybe forums fake Skip Carlson will take time off of busy days bad mouthing Scott E and come here to explain. Tracks Delaware North run will screw horsemen in time.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2006, 03:59:05 PM »

There you go! This is just what I said months ago would happen. I stated months ago in a post that sooner or later the casino owners were going to get tired of giving money to the horse racing industry. Many more will follow in the furture and the tracks that rely on slots such as Dover will be racing for $1000 all over again.

    If the Illinois horseman think for one minute that slots will save them they have another guest coming to dinner. Casino's and gaming is making harness racing " A DEAD GAME LADDIE ". T-bred racing will always survive but harness racing is in big trouble in the future. Isn't the writing on the wall?  


Dan:
I think you have to be careful to draw a distinction between Delaware, where the horsemen are guaranteed their share of the slot revenue by law, and New York where the horsemen's share is a matter of negotiation between the track and the horsemen.

In the latter case management can and probably will try to screw over the horsemen. In the former, management would have convince the legislature and governor to change the law. That isn't about to happen anytime soon in Delaware, because the horsemen are well-respected in the legislature and have a good deal of influence.

The bottom line is that properly crafted legislation, which includes a guarantee for the horsemen, will go a long way toward preventing a screwing over by management.
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Dan Nance
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2006, 04:05:52 PM »

Dan:
I think you have to be careful to draw a distinction between Delaware, where the horsemen are guaranteed their share of the slot revenue by law, and New York where the horsemen's share is a matter of negotiation between the track and the horsemen.

In the latter case management can and probably will try to screw over the horsemen. In the former, management would have convince the legislature and governor to change the law. That isn't about to happen anytime soon in Delaware, because the horsemen are well-respected in the legislature and have a good deal of influence.

The bottom line is that properly crafted legislation, which includes a guarantee for the horsemen, will go a long way toward preventing a screwing over by management.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the furture brings for Delaware and other places. When the legislator's get paid off by managagement the law will change real quick.
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Les Moore
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2006, 12:38:01 AM »

Dan thats why I always admired your opinion. Simple, straight and to the point. The key word in your last post is paid off. In reality, wouldn't that make the people who recieve the payoffs Prostitutes?
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2006, 07:14:09 PM »

Slots was a big buzzword at the meeting.  Several people are under the impression that slots are not only a savior to the sport, but also right around the corner.  It goes to show how poorly informed some people are.  First off, as Mr. Jack Kelly pointed out, you can FORGET about slots coming this way in an election year.  I wish he would have stressed that correct point of view better, but he was totally correct.  IF slots are ever approved, then the horsemen have to fight all over again for a fair slice of the pie.  Good luck considering the greed the Gestapo exhibits !  At this point in time, slots should not be discussed until the IHHA hammers out an agreement with Maywood and Balmoral.  Slots are a down the road factor at best; getting a fair deal in place  is of precedence with the current business climate now.  TC
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2014, 05:07:16 PM »

MONTICELLO MANAGEMENT RENEGES
Posted by News Room 09:25 PM 01-Jan-2006 CST

The management at Monticello Raceway, empowered by their collection of lucrative slots money pursuant to legislation established to help the racing industry, has decided that it has no obligation to pay any monies from VLT revenue to the Monticello harness horsemen.

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=33027


8 years later and the problems are worse.
Too bad this article wasn't copied here seems missing at this point in time.
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"A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or the others crazy?"

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burton
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2014, 05:56:12 PM »

Great to read some posts from three of the all time great posters in BTW history.
EdwardWilliam, NJ Horseman and of course the late, great, Racetrack Phil.
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SilencedTruth
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2014, 06:03:30 PM »

Great to read some posts from three of the all time great posters in BTW history.
EdwardWilliam, NJ Horseman and of course the late, great, Racetrack Phil.

Never heard of them.
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"A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or the others crazy?"

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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2014, 07:27:05 AM »

Great to read some posts from three of the all time great posters in BTW history.
EdwardWilliam, NJ Horseman and of course the late, great, Racetrack Phil.
Well said, burton.

Sure miss stopping by Phil's booth on a Friday and shooting the breeze with Phil, Goodfella and the guys.

I hope all is well with EW and NJ.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2014, 09:52:31 AM »

The casinos were coming with or without horse racing.
It just happens that they tied the slots initially to horse racing.
Sooner or later, a little later in this case, the decision would be made to not prop up a failing industry.
That is what is happening here.
Look at purse and handle figures from today and 1984, and compare them in dollars from 30 years ago.
The current numbers are not even close, which indicates a dying business..
Frankly, the horsemen and Monticello, and their counsel were not only outplayed here, I don't think they had much to work with in the first place..
Becoming a slot mechanic might be the way to go now and going forward..
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