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Author Topic: Negotiating a New Contract  (Read 1792 times)
talking head
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« on: December 28, 2005, 01:33:07 PM »

If you were at the negotiating sessions with the Johnstons how would you handle the situation? Things like what would you want the Horseman to have, what you would be willing to accept, and how would you handle management?
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Fillmore Bear
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2005, 02:48:15 PM »

I'd bring Luca Brasi along to convince JJ to sign.
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emp
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2005, 03:18:42 PM »


Yakuza cut off the top joint of their little finger when they make a serious mistake, do something that embarrasses the gang, costs the gang money, or causes dissent within the ranks.

It is also a way to apologise when you can't pay a debt, to end a feud, or to settle a dispute. The practice is called yubizume and is actually an old samurai tradition. When a Japanese sword is held properly, most of the grip's strength is applied by the little finger, so a person who had cut his off could not hold his sword properly. Samurai who could not hold their swords properly were far less effective in battle, and thus, more dependent on their lord. The yakuza adapted the practice, because many of them consider themselves to be following the old samurai traditions.

The process is designed to be as unpleasant as possible, helping the yakuza show how sorry they are. They always do it themselves. First they take a string and wrap it tightly around their finger so that it cuts off the circulation. This both numbs the finger and lessens the amount of blood they lose. Originally yubizume was performed with a knife but now it is usually done with a square shaped, very sharp chisel called a nomi. They put the chisel above the first joint, and give it a good whack with a heavy hammer. The finger usually flies 20 or 30 centimetres, which gave rise to the expression, キYubi o tobasuキ(make your finger fly).

What do you do with your finger when you've cut it off? You present it to the person you offended or to the kumicho (leader of the gang). In his book, Uyoku, Yakuza, Sokaiya: Honto no Sugata, former police officer Ishigumi Takao relates the story of how he visited a yakuza headquarters and went to get a drink. One of the yakuza told him, "Please don't look in the fridge." When he asked, "Are everyone’s fingers in there?",キthe man gave him an embarrassed nod.

The stupidest finger-cutting story you will ever hear was told by Inagawa-kai president Kakuji Inagawa. He relates how he tried to stop the practice of yubizume but some of his lieutenants just didn’t get the message. When one of them demanded that one of his low-ranking gang members cut off his finger for some serious infraction, the oyabun got angry and berated the boss. The boss, comprehending, but yet not comprehending, cut off his finger and sent it to Inagawa by way of apology.

The practice of yubizume is gradually dying out, both because yakuza do not want to be easily recognisable and because the samurai values that were once so important to them are fading out.

Nowadays a yakuza is as likely to offer money to end a dispute as he is his finger.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2005, 03:28:44 PM »

If you were at the negotiating sessions with the Johnstons how would you handle the situation? Things like what would you want the Horseman to have, what you would be willing to accept, and how would you handle management?

Sooner or later horsemen have to face facts there isnt enough betting to support racing every night 52 weeks 11-15 races per card. It doesnt do any good to squeeze all the juice out of the tracks then there is no money left to do anything for fans marketing et cetera. Thats the first step. My opinion only. Less live race days could decrease costs for tracks too it might be win-win thats how youd have to sell it. Get an agreement that less live days wont make recapture worse like the tbreds horsemen did with there tracks.

Less days does not seem to be on the table though. Dont know how you handle Johnstons in the current environment where horsemen dont want to give up anything. Maybe Terry Hunt knows what horsemen are willing to give up but to me it looks like nothing so far.  
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2005, 03:30:13 PM »

Add emp to the "ignore" list.  Kiss
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emp
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2005, 03:35:50 PM »


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talking head
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2005, 03:59:44 PM »

To Richard Breth:

The Horseman having been giving up things for years!
According to you the horsemen are at fault!
We are greedy yet are going BROKE.
We are crooks yet are not in control of the stewards or IRB.
We do not try to attract fans yet it we propose something it falls on deaf ears.
Like I said in another post:  IF THE JOHNSTONS ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY THEN WHY DO THEY WANT MORE DATES!
Please explain this one to me and the rest of the people who are on this site!
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2005, 04:15:31 PM »

To Richard Breth:

The Horseman having been giving up things for years!
According to you the horsemen are at fault!
We are greedy yet are going BROKE.
We are crooks yet are not in control of the stewards or IRB.
We do not try to attract fans yet it we propose something it falls on deaf ears.
Like I said in another post:  IF THE JOHNSTONS ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY THEN WHY DO THEY WANT MORE DATES!
Please explain this one to me and the rest of the people who are on this site!

The Johnstons want all the dates so they will have a monopoly and have the horsemen over a barrel. How does that strike you?
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talking head
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2005, 04:21:27 PM »

If your business is not making a profit then why are you still in business.
Monopoly!! What!  If you are not making money, monoploy dont mean nothing!!
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2005, 04:31:46 PM »

If your business is not making a profit then why are you still in business.
Monopoly!! What!  If you are not making money, monoploy dont mean nothing!!

If you have a monopoly and can force purses down further you will make money. Horsemen here leave some horsemen from Lebanon will think the purses here look great and come.

The point is this. Wagering on harness racing in Illinois is down since 1994 by a lot. There is less money to split up between tracks and horsemen. Someone has to recognize some common sense on that FACT! Horsemen have been giving up money tracks have been giving up and deferring money these years.

Do Illinois horsemen have any realistic idea how to create MORE betting on there races in 2006 and earn more purses? Any idea how to keep betting from shrinking on there races? That the bottom line betting on the races. Customers buying product. If customers arent buying what your selling whats your excuse for existance? Tracks arent running a social service agency. The State isnt running a social service agency.
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talking head
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2005, 04:43:54 PM »

We do not need a social service.  We need an opportunity to make a living! When the decked is stacked against you because management only cares about themselves, only promoting Super Night, nickel and diming the bettors out of their money, it becomes apparent that what management really cares about. Hint R. Breath its not about helping the Harness Industry survive in Illinois. Must be nice to have homes in three different parts of the country!
Again I ask How much money is enough?
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2005, 04:57:01 PM »

We do not need a social service.  We need an opportunity to make a living! When the decked is stacked against you because management only cares about themselves, only promoting Super Night, nickel and diming the bettors out of their money, it becomes apparent that what management really cares about. Hint R. Breath its not about helping the Harness Industry survive in Illinois. Must be nice to have homes in three different parts of the country!
Again I ask How much money is enough?

talking head I do not know all the details. I wish I had homes in three parts of the country also. Like TC. If you dont like the current track owners why dont horsemen start there own track and ask for dates? I dont blame horsemen alone. Everyone shares the blame.

Bottom line is there is less wagering on harness racing in Illinois. Much less since 1994. There is no denying that unless your like Joe and beleive it is all lies. Where is it you expect extra money to come from besides wagering? If theres less money track owners make less money and horsemen make less money. If the total pot goes down doesnt everyone get less?
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talking head
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2005, 08:38:21 PM »

This is how it seems to work in Illinois:

Lets say your revenue is 10.00
expenses are  3.00
that leaves  7.00 to split between horseman & tracks
3.50  for horseman & 3.50  for  tracks

Now lets save revenue drops to 8.00
expenses are  3.00
that leaves  5.00  to split  but  it  seems the track owners add another
2.00  in mystery  expenses  so  that  leaves
3.00   to  split   1.50  for  the tracks  and  1.50  for  the horseman.
but in reality that 2.00 in  mystery  expenses  which no one can  explain
goes into the  tracks   pocket.  they  still make their  3.50  while  the  horseman take  the shaft in loss purses due to less bet on races.
Welcome to Illinois!!
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rocket
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2005, 08:53:48 PM »

If the business of owning a race track is that bad these days. 1 Sell it or 2 Protect your investment and advertise with some intelligence, quit blaming all the decline on river boats.  Back in the days when we were dark on Sunday, this was a pretty good business. There has to be a reason why the Meadowlands stays dark on the off days. Staying dark on a day or two might be part of the solution. I believe there are several causes, bad promotion by the tracks, racing to many days, integrity and consistency are a problem, either let everyone give anything they want or shut it off, quit tap dancing. You would actually be doing some people a favor to be banned for life. I feel sorry for their horses. When is the last time anyone saw a billboard along a major highway advertising Maywood or Balmoral. The IRB has a really bad smell these days.  It is a big problem that needs to be addressed aggressively, from allot of different angles. Just my opinion.
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Richard Breth
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2005, 09:03:52 PM »

This is how it seems to work in Illinois:

Lets say your revenue is 10.00
expenses are  3.00
that leaves  7.00 to split between horseman & tracks
3.50  for horseman & 3.50  for  tracks

Now lets save revenue drops to 8.00
expenses are  3.00
that leaves  5.00  to split  but  it  seems the track owners add another
2.00  in mystery  expenses  so  that  leaves
3.00   to  split   1.50  for  the tracks  and  1.50  for  the horseman.
but in reality that 2.00 in  mystery  expenses  which no one can  explain
goes into the  tracks   pocket.  they  still make their  3.50  while  the  horseman take  the shaft in loss purses due to less bet on races.
Welcome to Illinois!!

That is not quite how it works in Illinois. The law says total money is split BEFORE expenses. If revenue is 10.00 tracks get 5.00 horsemen get 5.00. If revenue is 8.00 tracks get 4.00 horsemen get 4.00. Not the real % just an illustration.
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Armonsol
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2005, 09:48:53 PM »

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FIRST UP
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2005, 11:12:14 PM »

WITH THE BIG PURSES ON MONDAY AND WEDNESDAY NIGHTS AT MAYWOOD, ROUGHLY 40,000 FOR THE NIGHT, HOW CAN THE JOHNSTONS AFFORD TO RAISE PURSES WHEN THE HANDLE IS ONLY A MILLION PLUS?Huh?? RACEWAY PARKS HANDLE IS ABOUT THE TOTAL PURSE MONEY FOR A MONDAY NIGHT AT MAYWOOD AND PURSES AREN'T MUCH DIFFERENT THAN BAL. OR MAYWOOD. I GUESS THE JOHNSTONS ARE GIVING US A GOOD DEAL. DOES THAT COME WITH VASELINE??
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darth vader
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2005, 11:32:36 PM »

i hate to say this the horsemen won't win unless the state steps in and that won't happen
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FIRST UP
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2006, 09:14:57 AM »

I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT DARTH. IF THE STATE DOESN'T STEP IN THE HORSEMEN WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE IT IN THE SHORTS. THE JOHNSTONS WILL NEVER GIVE THE HORSEMEN A FAIR DEAL. EVERYONE SHOULD PACK IT IN AND LOOK FOR SOMEWHERE ELSE TO RACE. MAYBE IF EVERYONE REFUSED TO ENTER AT MAYWOOD AND BALMORAL FOR THE WHOLE YEAR, THE IRB WILL GET THE HINT TO GIVE HAWTHORNE THE BULK OF THE DATES NEXT YEAR. HOW ABOUT GIVING BALMORAL AND MAYWOOD THE HAWTHORNE DAYS TO SPLIT UP?? THAT WAY THEY WON'T LOOSE NEARLY AS MUCH MONEY AS LAST YEAR Grin THE HORSEMEN NEED TO GO ONE STEP FURTHER, AND REFUSE TO PATRONIZE THESE A**HOLES BY BETTING OTHER TRACKS FROM EITHER LOCATION. A GOOD PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE THAT YOU SEE IN THE STANDS HAVE SOME TIE TO RACING, EITHER OWNERS, TRAINERS, DRIVERS, GROOMS ETC. EVERYONE NEEDS TO PULL TOGETHER AND REFUSE SPEND MONEY AT EITHER TRACK. LETS SHOW THEM WHAT IT WOULD FEEL LIKE TO REALLY LOOSE SOME MONEY!! OH, I FORGOT, THEY HAVE BEEN LOSING MONEY FOR YEARS Wink
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