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Author Topic: just how bad are things?  (Read 3672 times)
g3tPWNed_24
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« on: March 02, 2007, 03:49:32 PM »

the entries are horrific thus far and 2morrows opener is absolutely no better! they gotta 18k claimer for the opener with a 9YO MARE entered who hasnt even broke her non 3l for cheap in ohio,beside her(whos entered just to make it go) that is a etrocious field for the boys for 18 by the way! chicago racing is in big trouble, if you havent realized that yet this meet then you probaly never will
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g3tPWNed_24
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2007, 03:51:14 PM »

almost 3, no overnight for sunday yet
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edwarren
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2007, 03:55:55 PM »

Yep. Good call.
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dogs up
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2007, 04:20:04 PM »

Why the hell are we racing this early anyway. There are few non ill horses at the track at this time, and who wants to race here when Fair Grounds and Oaklawn have better weather, and more important than that, much better purses. Mid March with 4 day weeks would be early enough.
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big wally
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2007, 04:50:18 PM »

This is no different from spring meets years past. They struggle to get 7 entries a race,and this year is worse than last. The on and off handle numbers are plummenting the first 2 days of the meet on track and off track handle were down around 18% and 30% respectively compared to 06.  The locals want to race and if they had their way they would race year round... Things need to change...
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Stat Man Steve
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2007, 10:38:29 PM »

I can't say it even be worth running a 6 week spring meet if you're NOT going to get KY Derby Day and many May dates - the IL host track status on Saturdays for the Derby Preps might be the a main carrot, but it isn't the BIG Carrot.   carrot

Yeah, we need two TB tracks in IL, but they BOTH need to run enough decent dates to make it worth their while.  And a better regulatory environment to operate in.  Forget the idea of the Racino to compete with IL Casinos.  They need the racino money just to TRY to get the horses back that we've lot to the Racinos in other states.   Otherwise, can they last enough years (racing or dark) until the day (if it happens) when the Racino states give up the racing portion, and then try to pick up the pieces?  Yeah, I wouldn't do that with the few thousand I might have to invest, let alone the tens of millilons the track owners and shareholders already have invested. 
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Exbourne
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2007, 10:43:04 PM »

The amount of horses on the grounds are at an all time low.
What do you guys want?
As I have said Before MANY times we need the Thorne.
The weather and wind??? What can ya do??Turfway with the GREAT polytrack has cancelled a few race cards..
Have ya seen the fields there??? No better AT ALL Than Hawthorne.Fuller but no better.
Oh and by the way the purces there a less.If not prove me wrong.
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Stat Man Steve
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 10:59:12 PM »

I'm sure the place would be better off with Fri-Sat-Sun racing only early on.  But many of the smaller outfits, who can't win money at any of the better places, and have the IL horssemen's voting veto power, probably won't allow it.  So they keep entereing the same clunkers that need a few races before they run their best (IF their best will EVER fit here) and essentially get small paychecks in races for workouts, while the few that are ready, or ready enough, fight it out for somewhat easier, but ever dwindling purses.  Many of these 'runners' would be more competitive at Beulah, but I don't see how anyone could pay the bills and eek out a living on Beulah purses, and I know it's harder to do it on claiming purses, in IL, or most places. 
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Stat Man Steve
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 11:02:36 PM »

Guess short of slots, or the Metropolitan Chicagoland monopoly on Chicago-Style Pizza Sales, we need them to Strike Oil on the Hawthorne and AP Grounds, and hope the owners want to live like the UAE Oil Sheiks and fund the purses for horse races as a great public entertainment attraction. 
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Moon
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 11:22:07 PM »

The amount of horses on the grounds are at an all time low.
What do you guys want?
As I have said Before MANY times we need the Thorne.
The weather and wind??? What can ya do??Turfway with the GREAT polytrack has cancelled a few race cards..
Have ya seen the fields there??? No better AT ALL Than Hawthorne.Fuller but no better.
Oh and by the way the purces there a less.If not prove me wrong.

Is there any way to verify that the horses at Haw are at an all-time low? nwaryas said that and he was promptly corrected by Jim Miller.

I thought polytrack was just going to cut down on breakdowns, not allow more winter racing dates. Do you have the reasons for Turfway canceling? Was it because of the track or was it like Haw today? The track was fine, as far as I can tell - it was just high winds and low visibility.
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Jim C
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2007, 12:45:50 AM »

I have said this many times before. We should not be racing here until the end of March at the earliest! if you are going to run in March it should be Fri-Sun and that's it! Let that dark time money build up, less races means the races you do run will have more horses in them. The excuse some trainers use that we have to be running now or they will lose their help or wont be able to keep horses here because their owners will go somewhere else and not come back is pure BS. If they have horses that can run now there are tracks that are open elsewhere that these trainers could run at.

It is nothing more than a lazy excuse for not wanting to do go anywhere else to run and expecting that they are entitled to run right here and the rest of the industry should suffer because they are unwilling to do what is best for racing.

These are some of the same people that really do not want purses to go up because better horses may come here to run if the money increases. When that happens they wont be able to compete and will be the first ones complaining that the "local' horsemen are getting pushed out. The sad thing is Hawthorne goes right along with them when they could very easily say that they will not start live racing so early.
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Exbourne
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2007, 01:07:16 AM »

The Polytrack was bunching up bad in the cold at Turfway.It was in the Bloodhorse ect.
Good weather last year so this was a 1st time thing.But it just shows it can happen ANYWHERE In the winter months.
As for horses on the grounds at the Thorne?
More are comming soon.
Our purces here are STILL better than Turfway.
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2007, 02:10:02 AM »

Hawthorne is still hanging on to the NJC people. Tim Carey is not as good as people thought he would be. He's listening to the NJC people, and NOT trying to run Hawthorne like they did 4 years ago when they did very well even though all the casinos were there, the lottery was there, and the other tracks were there.
IMO it's a bunch of BS that they are blaming the slots on the demise of Hawthorne.
When I worked there there were all of the riverboats that are in place now. So, why can't they make the same money now as they did four years ago?
It's because they are managing it different - that's why.
Jim Miller - you should listen to this and find people that know what Hawthorne needs to get the gamblers back, and tell Tim Carey before you guys fall apart. It's coming sooner than you think at the rate you are going....
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big wally
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2007, 08:07:58 AM »

Carey in a press release stated he was happy about opening day.. this was with  a big decrease in handle... Hawthorne must have  very low expectations
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2007, 09:25:53 AM »

I have said this many times before. We should not be racing here until the end of March at the earliest! if you are going to run in March it should be Fri-Sun and that's it! Let that dark time money build up, less races means the races you do run will have more horses in them. The excuse some trainers use that we have to be running now or they will lose their help or wont be able to keep horses here because their owners will go somewhere else and not come back is pure BS. If they have horses that can run now there are tracks that are open elsewhere that these trainers could run at.

It is nothing more than a lazy excuse for not wanting to do go anywhere else to run and expecting that they are entitled to run right here and the rest of the industry should suffer because they are unwilling to do what is best for racing.

These are some of the same people that really do not want purses to go up because better horses may come here to run if the money increases. When that happens they wont be able to compete and will be the first ones complaining that the "local' horsemen are getting pushed out. The sad thing is Hawthorne goes right along with them when they could very easily say that they will not start live racing so early.

Jim,
    You have hit the nail on the head on every point. I couldn't have said it any better.

Pete
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2007, 10:11:46 AM »

The sad thing is Hawthorne goes right along with them when they could very easily say that they will not start live racing so early.

Clever, Jim -- Arlington gobbles up all of the good TB dates, including Derby Day...then, it's Hawthorne's fault for starting too early.

If Hawthorne agreed to start in say, late March, I'm sure DD would readily agree to start AP later to balance things out "for the good of racing", right? Riiight.
 
Jim,
    You have hit the nail on the head on every point. I couldn't have said it any better.

Pete

Pete, are you under contract with Jim to provide "yes boss" posts? This isn't the first time you've had nothing more to post than "Jim, I agree with everything you just said, signed, your toady, Pete".
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Moon
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2007, 11:54:42 AM »

Well, we seem to have a bunch of local horse owners here. Are you running at Haw or another northern track? Or are you waiting until April?
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edwarren
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2007, 12:21:44 PM »

Clever, Jim -- Arlington gobbles up all of the good TB dates, including Derby Day...then, it's Hawthorne's fault for starting too early.

If Hawthorne agreed to start in say, late March, I'm sure DD would readily agree to start AP later to balance things out "for the good of racing", right? Riiight.
 
Pete, are you under contract with Jim to provide "yes boss" posts? This isn't the first time you've had nothing more to post than "Jim, I agree with everything you just said, signed, your toady, Pete".

Has anyone seen this article from may 2000?

http://casinomagazine.com/managearticle.asp?c=530&a=729
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Jim C
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 12:42:12 PM »

First of all these early dates were never Hawthorne's to begin with, they were NJC dates. Second having the derby etc has nothing to do with having enough horses here to run in Feb. Once again the red herring of AP and DD is tossed into the mix. The problem IS and the point IS that starting this early does no one any good. If you want to argue dates fine, but it has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

My argument is that if racing were to start later and Hawthorne were to use the added dark time money their purses would be higher and there would be more horses to sustain a good meet. This would allow Hawthorne to make more money and have a much better meet. In short less racing at this time of year would be more profitable for Hawthorne then running more dates with less horses.

Personally Id rather the derby date be given to Hawthorne because I am at the derby and end up missing opening day at AP.
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edwarren
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2007, 12:50:48 PM »

First of all these early dates were never Hawthorne's to begin with, they were NJC dates. Second having the derby etc has nothing to do with having enough horses here to run in Feb. Once again the red herring of AP and DD is tossed into the mix. The problem IS and the point IS that starting this early does no one any good. If you want to argue dates fine, but it has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

My argument is that if racing were to start later and Hawthorne were to use the added dark time money their purses would be higher and there would be more horses to sustain a good meet. This would allow Hawthorne to make more money and have a much better meet. In short less racing at this time of year would be more profitable for Hawthorne then running more dates with less horses.

Personally Id rather the derby date be given to Hawthorne because I am at the derby and end up missing opening day at AP.

NJC isn't.

"If you want to argue dates"? The whole post is about dates.

"red hering"? How is arlington park EVER a red herring when HAW's concerned?

"Personally Id rather the derby date be given to Hawthorne because I am at the derby and end up missing opening day at AP."
That's nice.


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Moon
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2007, 01:14:24 PM »

The first month of racing was always horrible when it was Sportman's. I don't see why that should change now.

In the last years of SPT, I didn't start betting until a month into the meet.
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NYRA 792
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2007, 07:37:51 PM »

The place is a joke. I would be embaressed to bring anyone there.Stopped by today for the first time this year and the toteboard didn't work and the "mood" lighting on the 3rd floor is a nice touch  Roll Eyes If you can't afford to turn the lights on upstairs why don't you just fold up and shut down.
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big wally
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2007, 07:54:56 PM »

Comparing this day to the second Saturday of the Meet of 2006... On Track Down 27%- Off Track Down 30%
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2007, 10:03:02 PM »

I couldn't believe Hawthorne's handle today. Total live and simulcast was under $1,600,000.00.

That's about 55% of their average daily total handle from over 4 years ago. BTW they merged with NJC 4 years ago. Also, the lottery, the casinos, and the same crappy Springfield polititions were ALL also here 4 years ago. Hmmmm..so what's the problem?
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2007, 11:31:15 PM »

I couldn't believe Hawthorne's handle today. Total live and simulcast was under $1,600,000.00.

That's about 55% of their average daily total handle from over 4 years ago. BTW they merged with NJC 4 years ago. Also, the lottery, the casinos, and the same crappy Springfield polititions were ALL also here 4 years ago. Hmmmm..so what's the problem?

Keep banging the "It's all because of the NJC merger" drum, Beau -- I'm sure that the shitty weather today, and gas prices that have jumped almost 40 cents a gallon in the last 3 weeks, have absolutely nothing to do with people staying away from live Chicago racing. Not to mention about 1,000 other issues that have dragged racing down in the last 4 days, weeks, years, and decades...none of those were in play today, either.

Yep. It's that dang merger. And nothing else.  Roll Eyes 
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2007, 10:31:42 AM »

Well, we seem to have a bunch of local horse owners here. Are you running at Haw or another northern track? Or are you waiting until April?

My hosses prolly won't start at Hawthorne.
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2007, 09:04:45 PM »

Clever, Jim -- Arlington gobbles up all of the good TB dates, including Derby Day...then, it's Hawthorne's fault for starting too early.

If Hawthorne agreed to start in say, late March, I'm sure DD would readily agree to start AP later to balance things out "for the good of racing", right? Riiight.
 
Pete, are you under contract with Jim to provide "yes boss" posts? This isn't the first time you've had nothing more to post than "Jim, I agree with everything you just said, signed, your toady, Pete".

Hey jag-off. I've posted plenty of times about Hawthorne's issues. I don't know Jim and but I like what he had to say. You can go ahead and keep sticking your nose up Carey's butt. Hawthorne is a dump with no redeeming qualities. The sooner they shut down or focus solely on Harness will not be soon enough for me. Here's a suggestion that even a dimwit like you can follow. Illinois TB racing dates: Hawthorne March 15 - April 30, October 16 - November 30. Arlington May 1 - October15. Dark money all goes to the only real track we have in Illinois - Arlington. Frankly I don't give Hawthorne a chance of surviving past next year without casino/slot revenue. Arlington has recently commited $13 million to new track surface and on track housing. Do ya really think they're not here to stay?

I was at Trackside today and played four tracks which have links to Arlington's meet - Fairgrounds, Turfway and Oaklawn Tampa. There are plenty of Illinois horsemen at those tracks and the racing and wagering opportunities are magnitudes better. We laughed at every 5 horse field that Haw paraded out. Gee is it only coincidence that the local horsemen that insist on racing during this ridiculous weather all cashed a check with the short fields in each race. What a joke. But Horse Voice you can keep burying your head in the Stickney quagmire and cursing big bad Arlington. Screw you.

Pete   
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dogs up
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2007, 10:30:57 PM »

Hey jag-off. I've posted plenty of times about Hawthorne's issues. I don't know Jim and but I like what he had to say. You can go ahead and keep sticking your nose up Carey's butt. Hawthorne is a dump with no redeeming qualities. The sooner they shut down or focus solely on Harness will not be soon enough for me. Here's a suggestion that even a dimwit like you can follow. Illinois TB racing dates: Hawthorne March 15 - April 30, October 16 - November 30. Arlington May 1 - October15. Dark money all goes to the only real track we have in Illinois - Arlington. Frankly I don't give Hawthorne a chance of surviving past next year without casino/slot revenue. Arlington has recently commited $13 million to new track surface and on track housing. Do ya really think they're not here to stay?

I was at Trackside today and played four tracks which have links to Arlington's meet - Fairgrounds, Turfway and Oaklawn Tampa. There are plenty of Illinois horsemen at those tracks and the racing and wagering opportunities are magnitudes better. We laughed at every 5 horse field that Haw paraded out. Gee is it only coincidence that the local horsemen that insist on racing during this ridiculous weather all cashed a check with the short fields in each race. What a joke. But Horse Voice you can keep burying your head in the Stickney quagmire and cursing big bad Arlington. Screw you.

Pete   

Well said Pete--By the way- i have no clue who you are or what you do, but you could not be more correct
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pjcleve
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2007, 11:12:14 PM »

Well said Pete--By the way- i have no clue who you are or what you do, but you could not be more correct

Careful Dog. Horse Voice might call you a "Toady" for agreeing with me.:-)

Pete
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Thomas Graham
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2007, 11:28:49 PM »

Hawthorne having a bad meet is not a good thing for anyone.  Each track would be better served if both had good strong meets, but that wasn't the case for either track in '06 and the start of the spring meet at Haw '07 does not bode well for AP '07.

There's too much racing - period.  HAW should just now be opening and even then only 3-4 days a week until the end of this month.  And this isn't just true here in Illinois, there's too much racing just about everywhere.
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2007, 11:56:25 PM »

Hawthorne having a bad meet is not a good thing for anyone.  Each track would be better served if both had good strong meets, but that wasn't the case for either track in '06 and the start of the spring meet at Haw '07 does not bode well for AP '07.

There's too much racing - period.  HAW should just now be opening and even then only 3-4 days a week until the end of this month.  And this isn't just true here in Illinois, there's too much racing just about everywhere.

I agree Thomas, there are too many tracks running simultaneously. I counted at least 10 tracks running during the day today and most of the races had small fields - 7 or less. I'm also quite certain that the live attendance at most of them was just a few thousand or less. Most of the wagering is obviously done off site and I suspect those off-track bettors play more tracks than they do when attending live (if for no other reason that there is more to do at the track than sitting in the OTB). The OTB bettors really need no more than 5 tracks running simultaneously. With 20 minutes between races a wagering opportunity could occur every 4 minutes - certainly sufficient for most off trackers.

The problem as you say is too many tracks. We could easily get by with half the number and then field sizes and wagering opportunities would improve greatly. Too bad it won't happen.

Pete
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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2007, 03:26:57 AM »

We laughed at every 5 horse field that Haw paraded out.

AP has so many five- and six-horse fields that it's actually called a TAR or "Typical Arlington Race." Smiley
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dogs up
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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2007, 01:18:19 PM »

AP has so many five- and six-horse fields that it's actually called a TAR or "Typical Arlington Race." Smiley

Hopefully the polytrack will help change that. If it doesn't- then I think the end, as we know it, is near
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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2007, 01:19:23 PM »

The end is nigh!!!

maroon
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edwarren
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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2007, 01:23:48 PM »

I think the Poly is  BSmeter to get winter dates. The stuff isn't holding up winter-wise, it's rumored, but if true it's nothing the Public Relations Department couldn't solve.
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