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Author Topic: end of the meet figures  (Read 2635 times)
Jim C
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2007, 11:40:35 PM »

It is interesting to me that when AP's numbers were down the claim on here by many was that Mr. D was doing his best to make it bad to the case that racing needed help from Springfield. Now after all the many voices, again on here, that had often claimed a full field at Hawthorne of 5k claimers would always be bet more than a less full field of good horses at AP didn't pan out, I don't read one post making the similar claim that Hawthorne is doing this on purpose to makes its case in Springfield? Now I am not saying this claim is valid in either case, but I just find it interesting that no one had brought it up.

I do not know if AP will do better this year or not....I hope it will be as much as I hope Hawthorne will be as well. The new track will certainly help APs cause both with the public PR and with those in Springfield. I am also hoping that something will get passed or allowed to be implemented that will finally help racing. Hell its January, hope is all we have right now LOL.

As far as this sport dying it is far from it. It is changing yes.....I would contend that this sport still has the same number of hard core fans as it had 10 years ago, maybe even 25 years ago. The change has come in that the casual fan is even more casual now. There are far more things to do today with your free time and going to the races is just something people may do once or twice a summer now when in the past they may have gone much more. There are more baseball teams to go see, more things to go see your kids compete in, far more people playing golf, tennis, water skiing, minor league baseball, much much more on TV to watch or yes this thing we are all on the internet. Add casinos to the mix and travel being far more convenient, less expensive and more available and you can see why racing would slip in its attendance.

But yet you have more people buying and spending more  money on horses then ever before. Just about every sale after sale new records are set for prices and numbers of horses sold. Stud fees are up, prices on mares are up, weanlings, 2 year olds all up and not just here but around the globe. This is hardly the trend for a game that is "dying" it is in fact evolving, changing into something that will be more in line with the 21st century. Baseball isn't the same as it was years ago nor is football or basketball. each has changed in its own way to better compete in todays market. The problem is that racing has been far too slow to make those changes, but it is changing and that change will not be complete until the older holdouts who still view the game through the lenses of glasses from the 1950's are gone, either retired or passed on to the winners circle beyond. Again, it is changing but dying? I think not.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2007, 01:51:50 AM »

It is interesting to me that when AP's numbers were down the claim on here by many was that Mr. D was doing his best to make it bad to the case that racing needed help from Springfield. Now after all the many voices, again on here, that had often claimed a full field at Hawthorne of 5k claimers would always be bet more than a less full field of good horses at AP didn't pan out, I don't read one post making the similar claim that Hawthorne is doing this on purpose to makes its case in Springfield? Now I am not saying this claim is valid in either case, but I just find it interesting that no one had brought it up.

Bad mouthing Hawthorne is YOUR job, Jim. Yours and Pete's and APCD Dan's a few others. Now you have fulfilled your duty.

I really don't remember any recent claims "by many" on here of Mr. D purposely trying to drive his meet into the ground, either. I know it's been said a few times in the past. But if you say so. You always seem to remember many people saying things that are hard to pinpoint in the actual forum archives.
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Moon
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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2007, 10:44:12 AM »

Go to Hawthorne on the weekdays or any OTB 75% of your customer base is eligible to collect Social Security.. Weekends 50%... In ten years who is going to pick up the slack? Live HANDLE AT Hawthorne is a dead issue and Hawthorne knows it... All their promotions are to keep their current customer base happy and yet this is the second year in a row with double digit declines. They have a right to *** about guys using cell phone to place bets when they are at the track but this has been happening for years easy solution choke off the rebate shops and kick the bettors off your track. Why dont they do it?  Answer: Big loss of Handle..

 


big wally, Baby Boomers are retiring! They'll be more old people with time on their hands. We're not going to run out of old people to play the horses for a LONG time!

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big wally
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« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2007, 10:55:20 AM »

Bigwally, Baby Boomers are retiring! They'll be more old people with time on their hands. We're not going to run out of old people to play the horses for a LONG time!

maroon

The problem with that analogy I belive is people under the age of 45 have no little or no interest in horse racing. The people in the 45-60 age bracket are more internet savvy than those 65+ and when their time comes to retire they will bet at home, it is already happening. My comments were more about Hawthorne customer base. Other areas where the boomers retire in tampa or phoenix actually might be OK in the near future.
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Moon
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« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2007, 10:59:50 AM »

Arlington will always be full of old people, though. They have to make up their mind whether they are racing on Wednesday or not. Because that's Old Folks Day! What are we going to do if they don't have Old Folks Day???
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pjcleve
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« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2007, 04:44:32 PM »

Bad mouthing Hawthorne is YOUR job, Jim. Yours and Pete's and APCD Dan's a few others.

Me bad mouth Hawthorne? - NEVER! .......... But you're a whole 'nuther subject.

Pete

Praying for Hawthorne’s revival  ........ it's a full time job.
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Jim C
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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2007, 08:41:11 PM »

Terry I was not bad mouthing anybody, in fact do not see where you would even think I might have been. I was simply asking the question why no one had raised the question of Hawthorne deliberately work to keep numbers low to further show the need for help. I think that is a legitimate question, just as much as when it was raised about AP. If that question bothers you then I am very sorry......But once again no mention of the other points I raised in my post, just the usual Hawthorne vs AP BS which never goes anywhere.
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2007, 09:51:16 PM »

Here is yet another article about 2 more tracks that posted INCREASES for 2006. Hawthorne is mentioned below the article regarding the Maryland tracks Laurel, and Pimlico.


http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=81661&subs=0&arc=1
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« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2007, 10:05:26 PM »

Terry I was not bad mouthing anybody, in fact do not see where you would even think I might have been. I was simply asking the question why no one had raised the question of Hawthorne deliberately work to keep numbers low to further show the need for help.

Why should they? No one reasonable claims that. But now someone has taken care of it, you.

I really don't remember anyone saying that about Arlington this year, either, much less many people, but I suppose you could point to the exact posts, or you wouldn't say it.
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2007, 10:06:40 PM »

Here is yet another article about 2 more tracks that posted INCREASES for 2006. Hawthorne is mentioned below the article regarding the Maryland tracks Laurel, and Pimlico.

How ever did they do it without slots?
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« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2007, 10:35:45 PM »

Every year some meets are up and some meets are down.

Hollywood Park was down many meets in a row, but finally had a good one this Fall. A few years back Oaklawn was declining and Fair Grounds was in the ascendancy, but then that turned around. Lone Star was growing every year and suddenly statred tanking. Retama Park had to close this season. Churchill's had up and down years recently. Gulfstream stunk the place out the past couple years, including one where they had no real excuse of construction and like that. Until this year the Maryland tracks had been tanking badly.

I suppose Beau is posting these articles to disprove my claim that handle overall is going down and, somehow ignoring the performance of the cross town counterpart, bolster his arguments about Hawthorne and its management. Or, who knows, maybe he just likes to post articles. What's important from an overall standpoint, if we are going to talk overall standpoints, is overall handle. The Jockey Club keeps that. It is here, up through 2005, showing overall decline the past two years. More tracks, more slots, handle on the decline. Illinois is part of a larger trend. Let's hope that number turns around, both nationally and in Illinois.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

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Jim C
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2007, 01:56:58 AM »

Terry.....PLEASE, you must be kidding me....you do not recall many posts by many people over the last 4 years at least that would over and over again claim that Mr D and AP were trying to make things look and end up poorly to further prove that some help had to come from Springfield? I would hope that I am not the only one who remembers those posts.....if others do please help me refresh Terry's memory.

Now all of a sudden its not a "reasonable" claim but when AP was accused of it it made sense....I never thought AP was doing it and I do not think Hawthorne is either, my point was and still is that is was brought up regarding AP and never was from the same people regarding Hawthorne.....again Terry I will try and get you to see the difference in that I was just asking the question and making an observation....not an accusation.

As far as the numbers go, you are correct in that meet figures will fluctuate from year to year but the problem here is that the number of starters per race were up vs AP and no breakdowns. Yet the numbers were down. Now I may be wrong, and if I am I am sure you will correct me but were you not one of those who would say that players just want full fields to bet on and that the quality of the race is not as important? That players would rather bet a race of 8-10 5k claimers over a race of 6-7 upper allowance horses? Once again I know I have read that often on here, maybe not from you but it was another argument raised on this site as to why players liked betting Hawthorne over AP. In any case that theory did not hold up this year, at least not at Hawthorne.
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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2007, 12:59:36 AM »

Terry.....PLEASE, you must be kidding me....you do not recall many posts by many people over the last 4 years at least that would over and over again claim that Mr D and AP were trying to make things look and end up poorly to further prove that some help had to come from Springfield? I would hope that I am not the only one who remembers those posts.....if others do please help me refresh Terry's memory.

Some people have made those claims in the past. Just not recently. I don't think that claim was made after this year's AP meet. That's what surprised me about you bringing it up now. Why not last Spring? Why not last Fall? Just suddenly got a bug up your a**?

Quote
Now all of a sudden its not a "reasonable" claim but when AP was accused of it it made sense

No, it has never been reasonable. It has mostly been voiced by some of our more conspiracy-minded posters, many of whom no longer post. That's another surprise, someone like you bringing such an unreasonable theory up again.

Quote
....I never thought AP was doing it and I do not think Hawthorne is either, my point was and still is that is was brought up regarding AP and never was from the same people regarding Hawthorne.....

Is that so? I seem to remember general accusations of "track owners" trying to sour business. Not just Arlington. Do you have some specific quotes from "those same people"?

Quote
As far as the numbers go, you are correct in that meet figures will fluctuate from year to year but the problem here is that the number of starters per race were up vs AP and no breakdowns. Yet the numbers were down. Now I may be wrong, and if I am I am sure you will correct me but were you not one of those who would say that players just want full fields to bet on and that the quality of the race is not as important? That players would rather bet a race of 8-10 5k claimers over a race of 6-7 upper allowance horses?

The argument has always been that Arlington would have better handle if Arlington carded larger fields. No one believes a 9 horse field at Hawthorne will out handle an 8 horse field at Arlington. Arlington has the better dates and a nicer facility that gets a larger summer crowd, and it has wider simulcast distribution because Churchill can force it down more throats.
 
Quote
Once again I know I have read that often on here, maybe not from you but it was another argument raised on this site as to why players liked betting Hawthorne over AP. In any case that theory did not hold up this year, at least not at Hawthorne.

Hawthorne started slow. It was WAY down, as we documented on this forum. That was right after Arlington, when field sizes were miserable. Late in the meet the field sizes increased, and the meet recovered some to its final numbers. Was this the first year Hoosier Park ran so late? Imagine how bad it would have been if Hawthorne had crappy AP-sized fields all meet. Hawthorne won't outhandle AP. Never has since I've been interested in racing. That's a non-issue.

The real point is both models of racing tanked badly this year, roughly the same percentages. Arlington's small fields of "quality horses", and Hawthorne's daily parade of cheap claimers both stunk, compared to last year. That says very little for either philosophy, does it?
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