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Author Topic: end of the meet figures  (Read 2644 times)
CLOCKERTERRY
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« on: January 03, 2007, 12:42:05 AM »

Handle numbers down, but not as much as at the beginning of the meet. Took some time to shake off that stink this summer at AP put on the Illinois program.  Grin

On-Site Live - down 11.89%
In-State Live - down 8.91%
Out of State Live -  down 2.23%
Total Live - down 9.88%
Combined - 8.46 starters per race
vs. 2005 – 9.01 starters per race

http://www.hawthorneracecourse.com/hawthorne_news/index.php?article=fallseasonconcludeshawthornereadies

P.S. I wondered why one of our correspondents from The Land Beyond O'Hare didn't have this up yet clucking about it, until I went back to review what Arlington did this year:

"Total handle from all sources for the 95-day meet was ... 8.5-percent decrease ...
In 2006, the average daily total handle ... fell 9.4-percent
On track .. total ..... 14.5-percent less than 2005 ...
[on track] Average daily wagering decreased by 15.4-percent ...
The 2006 average number of starters per race of 7.44 is down from the 2005 meet average of 7.98 starters per race."

Do I really know if these numbers compare? No. There should be a truth in reporting law for racetracks, where everyone has to report exactly the same numbers using exactly the same terms.

 
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2007, 12:46:50 AM »

Terry - repeat after me, "Hawthorne's fall numbers sucked".

As did Arlington's numbers for this year.

No one a Hawthorne has a clue on what to do. It's really quite simple.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2007, 12:49:39 AM »

Terry - repeat after me, "Hawthorne's fall numbers sucked".

As did Arlington's numbers for this year.

No one a Hawthorne has a clue on what to do. It's really quite simple.

They sucked almost exactly as bad as Arlington's. Do you think the patrons at AP stayed away and didn't bet because they knew Haw was going to shut off half the plant in the Fall? How about those off-track people who didn't bet, do you think that was in sympathy with their insulted on-track brethren?
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2007, 12:58:53 AM »

You opened a can of worms. Now expound!

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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2007, 01:08:46 AM »

You opened a can of worms. Now expound!

No real expounding should be needed, but I'll go.

You made the claim early in the meet that all the bad on track figures were due to them closing down half the plant. I'm merely pointing out that in the final analysis the on track decrease was almost exactly the same as Arlington's, actually less. There was also an off track decrease on the live races that was close to the on track. Neither of those similar happenings can be explained in any way by Hawthorne closing half the plant. To me it all looks more like part and parcel of a greater pattern in Illinois that has nothing at all to do with Hawthorne closing the clubhouse side. That's just a symptom, not the cause. Your mileage may vary.   
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SWAY BACK
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2007, 01:09:42 AM »

Handle numbers down, but not as much as at the beginning of the meet. Took some time to shake off that stink this summer at AP put on the Illinois program.  Grin

On-Site Live - down 11.89%
In-State Live - down 8.91%
Out of State Live -  down 2.23%
Total Live - down 9.88%
Combined - 8.46 starters per race
vs. 2005 – 9.01 starters per race

http://www.hawthorneracecourse.com/hawthorne_news/index.php?article=fallseasonconcludeshawthornereadies

P.S. I wondered why one of our correspondents from The Land Beyond O'Hare didn't have this up yet clucking about it, until I went back to review what Arlington did this year:

"Total handle from all sources for the 95-day meet was ... 8.5-percent decrease ...
In 2006, the average daily total handle ... fell 9.4-percent
On track .. total ..... 14.5-percent less than 2005 ...
[on track] Average daily wagering decreased by 15.4-percent ...
The 2006 average number of starters per race of 7.44 is down from the 2005 meet average of 7.98 starters per race."

Do I really know if these numbers compare? No. There should be a truth in reporting law for racetracks, where everyone has to report exactly the same numbers using exactly the same terms.

 

So now you admit Illinois racing is in the tank now? You change like the weather!!
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2007, 01:14:47 AM »

Terry..maybe now that it's a new year you are looking for a free new calculator from Hawthorne.

Closing 1/2 of the building DID hurt their attendance and handle. If you are so ignorant to think that it didn't, then there is nothing that I or anyone else on here can say to you.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2007, 01:38:01 AM »

So now you admit Illinois racing is in the tank now? You change like the weather!!

I didn't say it was in the tank, I reported the numbers. "Illinois racing is not in great shape" was my exact quote from the other post.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2007, 01:40:52 AM »

Closing 1/2 of the building DID hurt their attendance and handle. If you are so ignorant to think that it didn't, then there is nothing that I or anyone else on here can say to you.

I don't doubt that it did to some extent. We agreed on that before the season. My difference with you is your repeated claim that it was the chief and primary cause. Both of those had already been decreasing for several years at Hawthorne. They are decreasing at Arlington. They are decreasing nationwide. They were going to decrease this Fall whatehr or not that 1/2 the building was open.
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2007, 01:44:13 AM »

"Illinois is not sinking to the bottom. It's nowhere near the bottom. It's still right up there at the top of the 2nd tier. And don't even get me started on "Springfield's to blame". The horseman and tracks wrote the laws that are in place now."

Clockerterry the above is your quote on the other tread. So, will you now tell us what you really mean??
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BeauNarro
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2007, 01:50:51 AM »

I don't doubt that it did to some extent. We agreed on that before the season. My difference with you is your repeated claim that it was the chief and primary cause. Both of those had already been decreasing for several years at Hawthorne. They are decreasing at Arlington. They are decreasing nationwide. They were going to decrease this Fall whatehr or not that 1/2 the building was open.

Terry, go look at the attendance numbers and the handle figures for Hawthorne for every year from 1996 to 2002. Also, investigate and tell all of us if Hawthorne increased their purses during those years in the fall meet.
After you do that - tell all of us why since 2003 ( the year they merged with NJC ) that the numbers have gone down each year, and how many times they have increased the purses..
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2007, 02:13:11 AM »

Terry, go look at the attendance numbers and the handle figures for Hawthorne for every year from 1996 to 2002. Also, investigate and tell all of us if Hawthorne increased their purses during those years in the fall meet.
After you do that - tell all of us why since 2003 ( the year they merged with NJC ) that the numbers have gone down each year, and how many times they have increased the purses..

No, YOU provide the numbers, that's what I've been trying to say. It should be interesting making sense of them, since those included the two years Arlington was dark. When you've laid them all out, we can discuss specifics.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2007, 03:07:50 AM »

"Illinois is not sinking to the bottom. It's nowhere near the bottom. It's still right up there at the top of the 2nd tier. And don't even get me started on "Springfield's to blame". The horseman and tracks wrote the laws that are in place now."

Clockerterry the above is your quote on the other tread. So, will you now tell us what you really mean??

Sorry, I missed this one earlier, SWAY.

That comment was in response to Beau's statement that Illinois is sinking to the bottom of the purse distribution pile. It is nowhere near the bottom. Me reporting declines in live handle, or stating that Illinois racing is not in great shape, doesn't change that fact.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »

Sorry, I missed this one earlier, SWAY.

That comment was in response to Beau's statement that Illinois is sinking to the bottom of the purse distribution pile. It is nowhere near the bottom. Me reporting declines in live handle, or stating that Illinois racing is not in great shape, doesn't change that fact.

You claim they are "upper 2nd tier", can you let us in on what tracks are 2nd tier?
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2007, 06:34:18 PM »

You claim they are "upper 2nd tier", can you let us in on what tracks are 2nd tier?

From time to time the DRF publishes an index of purse values at various tracks. Keep an eye out for that, and look for the next tier of purses below the top circuits, the So Cal tracks, NY tracks, and Churchill and Keeneland. If you can find a copy of Thoroughbred Times they also publish a purse list, but it is only for tracks currently running.
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dogs up
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2007, 06:35:04 PM »

All you guys are missing the real point.--Hawthorn had large fields, much larger than Arlington.--Everyone says if you have larger fields, you will get more handle(Iheard that from all the customers and trainers last year will working at AP)--That did not happen-- Hawthorn dropped a point more than AP--Yet they had more than 1 horse more per race, which is a huge jump. Even if Hawthorn closed half the buil;ding, how does that explain the decrease in off track and out of state handle
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2007, 06:40:03 PM »

Even if Hawthorn closed half the buil;ding, how does that explain the decrease in off track and out of state handle

That was a point I was trying to make. It doesn't.

Illinois is suffering from a long string of boring and bad meets, as well as being behind the technology curve. Some bettors are turning off Illinois completely, while others are turning to online wagering or rebate services. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2007, 07:26:00 PM »

All you guys are missing the real point.--Hawthorn had large fields, much larger than Arlington.--Everyone says if you have larger fields, you will get more handle(Iheard that from all the customers and trainers last year will working at AP)--That did not happen-- Hawthorn dropped a point more than AP--Yet they had more than 1 horse more per race, which is a huge jump. Even if Hawthorn closed half the buil;ding, how does that explain the decrease in off track and out of state handle

In my opinion it takes large and quality fields to drive the handle up. If you take the same races Hawthorne has and reduce their fields their handle will go down and thats a fact. Now, if you ask me if thats the only negative factor in Illinois I will say no. 1 more horse per race will not make up for lack of quality Hawthorne has as compared to Arlington (which ain't much).
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2007, 07:32:50 PM »

"That was a point I was trying to make. It doesn't.

Illinois is suffering from a long string of boring and bad meets, as well as being behind the technology curve. Some bettors are turning off Illinois completely, while others are turning to online wagering or rebate services."

Well, I am a pessimist. Illinois IS suffering from a long string of boring and bad meets. As far as a technology curve, what are you gonna do? There is no magic bullet for any track in this country. I was told 15 years ago by a DRF Supervisor that this was a dying sport. I didn't believe it then but I believe it now.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2007, 07:48:50 PM »

As far as a technology curve, what are you gonna do?

By that I meant telephone and Internet account wagering. Handle has been bleeding out the back door for more than 10 years, and it is only going to get worse.
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big wally
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2007, 08:27:06 PM »

Go to Hawthorne on the weekdays or any OTB 75% of your customer base is eligible to collect Social Security.. Weekends 50%... In ten years who is going to pick up the slack? Live HANDLE AT Hawthorne is a dead issue and Hawthorne knows it... All their promotions are to keep their current customer base happy and yet this is the second year in a row with double digit declines. They have a right to *** about guys using cell phone to place bets when they are at the track but this has been happening for years easy solution choke off the rebate shops and kick the bettors off your track. Why dont they do it?  Answer: Big loss of Handle..

 
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2007, 08:47:24 PM »

Tvg did not carry Hawthorne this fall. I don't know how big TVG is,  but they are only carried in 12 states so I don't know how much handle they generate. . How much did Hawthorne miss TVG's handle?  According to the ITHA, Youbet brought in more handle to Hawthorne. What gives?Huh
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2007, 09:22:14 PM »

Tvg did not carry Hawthorne this fall. I don't know how big TVG is,  but they are only carried in 12 states so I don't know how much handle they generate. . How much did Hawthorne miss TVG's handle?  According to the ITHA, Youbet brought in more handle to Hawthorne. What gives?Huh

It's hard to judge that. People might have watched on TVG then bet through some other service. More people get TVG than HRTV. Arlington was on TVG all summer except for the infamous last week, and their handle was down, too, so TVG is an unlikely explanation for all Hawthorne's decrease.

I'm sure management at Hawthorne knows exactly where the handle was lost. It could be something as simple as a few large bettors bailing out of the local tote system and calling their bets to offshore rebaters. It could be a combination of a lot of things. We're  just speculating. The only person I know for sure didn't bet as much as previous years was me.

One other thing to consider is there's a nice new OTB in Niles that wasn't there last year. I know I spent a few days there I would have gone to the track in the past. I always saw someone I knew from Hawthorne there. (Though mostly the clientele at that place is a bunch of heavy smoking Greek or something guys that I don't recognize.)
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2007, 09:51:30 PM »

In this year of 2007, Arlington's handle and attendance will be up - you heard it here first. I say this because Arlington made a HUGE move to convert to Polytrack after their disasterous summer meet of gloom and death of horses, and all the negative publicity from the media.
Other tracks around the country have done very well in 2006 whereas their handle and attendance was up (not down). Below is a report today from Thoroughbred Times. I know some of the naysayers like ClockerTerry will say that it was only a 25 day meet, but I will say before you say that, then look at Hawthorne's numbers for their first 25 days - or Arlington's in first 25 days in 2006. There were MANY tracks around the country that did post increases in both attendance and handle for 2006. There were also several that posted losses in both catagories.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/January/03/Turfway-handle-up-18.7-at-holiday-meeting.aspx
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2007, 10:01:28 PM »

In this year of 2007, Arlington's handle and attendance will be up - you heard it here first. I say this because Arlington made a HUGE move to convert to Polytrack after their disasterous summer meet of gloom and death of horses, and all the negative publicity from the media.

Arlington should also have higher purses this year, since the IRB gave them more of the dark days money. Let's see if they can parlay that into some positive momentum.

Hollywood also had an up year after putting in polytrack. If polytrack can reverse years of slide at Hollywood, it should also be able to do something for Arlington.
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