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Author Topic: TO KEEP OR NOT TO KEEP, THAT IS THE QUESTION  (Read 2400 times)
talking head
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2006, 06:26:19 PM »



Completely agree.

To speak to keeping her -- there's a good chance you might be able to realize a greater profit on her than what she sold for, but in order to do that, you need to accept quite a bit of uncertainty.

Let's put it this way -- if someone told you right now that you could have $400,000 or Bunny Lake -- what would you do?  I'd take the money.

Best,
EW
I would keep the mare! She made 2.8 million, you should not have to be worried about money!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2006, 06:32:04 PM »

I would keep the mare! She made 2.8 million, you should not have to be worried about money!

Assuming there were partners, and after expenses (which were surely large), it isn't all that much money.  Factor in how many other horses they've probably lost on?  Who knows -- there's a potential they could be DOWN in the industry.

It's a business decision.  She'll be going to an excellent farm, and will most likely be treated as well as a horse can be treated.  I just don't get the problem here.  If they kept her, she would stand around and be bred.  At Hanover, she will stand around and be bred.  What's the difference?

For that matter, what are you supposed to do if you simply don't want a pet?  I'll play the part of the example.  Later in life, hopefully I'll have the financial means to own horses (If the industry is still around  Undecided), but at the same time, I have no plans to even live outside of an urban area.  What am I supposed to do with her?  Go pet her occasionally?  If I don't want to breed a horse, what am I to do?

I do, however, think they owe it to the horse to keep tabs on her, and make sure that Hanover never sells her into less adequate care.  For example, if she had underachieving foals for 3-4 years, and they were going to sell her to some rinky-dink farm where she might be treated poorly, they SHOULD buy her back.  That's about the only responsibility I see here.

Best,
EW
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race track phil
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2006, 07:46:51 PM »

Assuming there were partners, and after expenses (which were surely large), it isn't all that much money.  Factor in how many other horses they've probably lost on?  Who knows -- there's a potential they could be DOWN in the industry.

It's a business decision.  She'll be going to an excellent farm, and will most likely be treated as well as a horse can be treated.  I just don't get the problem here.  If they kept her, she would stand around and be bred.  At Hanover, she will stand around and be bred.  What's the difference?

For that matter, what are you supposed to do if you simply don't want a pet?  I'll play the part of the example.  Later in life, hopefully I'll have the financial means to own horses (If the industry is still around  Undecided), but at the same time, I have no plans to even live outside of an urban area.  What am I supposed to do with her?  Go pet her occasionally?  If I don't want to breed a horse, what am I to do?

I do, however, think they owe it to the horse to keep tabs on her, and make sure that Hanover never sells her into less adequate care.  For example, if she had underachieving foals for 3-4 years, and they were going to sell her to some rinky-dink farm where she might be treated poorly, they SHOULD buy her back.  That's about the only responsibility I see here.

Best,
EW
    EDWARD ,   
                                    This is not a knock ! I understand that your a young man and eager to make a mark in your life financially and thats what most young people try to achieve its the american way ! but when you do make that mark in life you might have different values about a horse that you should have been proud to own as the owners of BUNNY LAKE a special horse and they are different ! naturally all horses deserve good treatment , but lets be honest some dont get good homes to live out there lives . so what if your an urban person ! there's nothing wrong with paying for the horses keep and going once a week and do a little more than petting the horse , how about you take the horse out for a nice walk and then let the horse frolic around in a nice inclosed paddock and if you really get to know the horse ? the horse may actually come to you when you have that bag of carrots and you just might enjoy a relationship of man and animal a little more fuller ! A person can have a fulfilling bond with an animal it does'nt have to be a dog ! sure BUNNY LAKE will have a nice home and the owners will have the cash and no worries and no obligations to go pet and brush the horse or watch him run around and bring her carrots that brought them 2,800.000 in earnings ! thats there right because they owned the horse and there business people period and obviously never really had a true attachment to the horse ! I know one thing when I found a home for my 8000 claimer heather molly and would go out there and brush her and do the other things I mentioned she was one happy mare ! just remember horses dont talk and dont have many horse friends if any , they just stand in a stall ! well I know one thing when my wife and I came you could look in mollys eyes and see how happy she was we arrived ! we had a good time and she sure enjoyed the visit . some people just enjoy the little things in life and some DONT !    I guess its all how we view lifes importance and what we do to enjoy it !  tell me if you get successful in life and own some horses if you feel the same way ?   
                                           geezer     RTP

               P S     Just send me a letter ! send via heaven if you get it back ?
                        well you know where I'm at then and I doubt if I'll have any mail priviledges at the ice cold lemonade stand I might be running !

                                               maroon
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FreeLegged
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2006, 07:56:59 PM »

    EDWARD ,   
                                    This is not a knock ! I understand that your a young man and eager to make a mark in your life financially and thats what most young people try to achieve its the american way ! but when you do make that mark in life you might have different values about a horse that you should have been proud to own as the owners of BUNNY LAKE a special horse and they are different ! naturally all horses deserve good treatment , but lets be honest some dont get good homes to live out there lives . so what if your an urban person ! there's nothing wrong with paying for the horses keep and going once a week and do a little more than petting the horse , how about you take the horse out for a nice walk and then let the horse frolic around in a nice inclosed paddock and if you really get to know the horse ? the horse may actually come to you when you have that bag of carrots and you just might enjoy a relationship of man and animal a little more fuller ! A person can have a fulfilling bond with an animal it does'nt have to be a dog ! sure BUNNY LAKE will have a nice home and the owners will have the cash and no worries and no obligations to go pet and brush the horse or watch him run around and bring her carrots that brought them 2,800.000 in earnings ! thats there right because they owned the horse and there business people period and obviously never really had a true attachment to the horse ! I know one thing when I found a home for my 8000 claimer heather molly and would go out there and brush her and do the other things I mentioned she was one happy mare ! just remember horses dont talk and dont have many horse friends if any , they just stand in a stall ! well I know one thing when my wife and I came you could look in mollys eyes and see how happy she was we arrived ! we had a good time and she sure enjoyed the visit . some people just enjoy the little things in life and some DONT !    I guess its all how we view lifes importance and what we do to enjoy it !  tell me if you get successful in life and own some horses if you feel the same way ?   
                                           geezer     RTP

               P S     Just send me a letter ! send via heaven if you get it back ?
                        well you know where I'm at then and I doubt if I'll have any mail priviledges at the ice cold lemonade stand I might be running !

                                               maroon


race track, this was a good piece of writing 
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2006, 08:00:35 PM »

    EDWARD ,   
                                    This is not a knock ! I understand that your a young man and eager to make a mark in your life financially and thats what most young people try to achieve its the american way ! but when you do make that mark in life you might have different values about a horse that you should have been proud to own as the owners of BUNNY LAKE a special horse and they are different ! naturally all horses deserve good treatment , but lets be honest some dont get good homes to live out there lives . so what if your an urban person ! there's nothing wrong with paying for the horses keep and going once a week and do a little more than petting the horse , how about you take the horse out for a nice walk and then let the horse frolic around in a nice inclosed paddock and if you really get to know the horse ? the horse may actually come to you when you have that bag of carrots and you just might enjoy a relationship of man and animal a little more fuller ! A person can have a fulfilling bond with an animal it does'nt have to be a dog ! sure BUNNY LAKE will have a nice home and the owners will have the cash and no worries and no obligations to go pet and brush the horse or watch him run around and bring her carrots that brought them 2,800.000 in earnings ! thats there right because they owned the horse and there business people period and obviously never really had a true attachment to the horse ! I know one thing when I found a home for my 8000 claimer heather molly and would go out there and brush her and do the other things I mentioned she was one happy mare ! just remember horses dont talk and dont have many horse friends if any , they just stand in a stall ! well I know one thing when my wife and I came you could look in mollys eyes and see how happy she was we arrived ! we had a good time and she sure enjoyed the visit . some people just enjoy the little things in life and some DONT !    I guess its all how we view lifes importance and what we do to enjoy it !  tell me if you get successful in life and own some horses if you feel the same way ?   
                                           geezer     RTP

               P S     Just send me a letter ! send via heaven if you get it back ?
                        well you know where I'm at then and I doubt if I'll have any mail priviledges at the ice cold lemonade stand I might be running !

                                               maroon

Glad to hear how much you enjoyed Heather Molly!  We took the first horse my Father ever owned out to my Uncle's farm and kept it for quite awhile.  Was common in every sense of the word, but still special because it was the first one!

I guess I just feel that -- if you are going to have a horse that's a fabulous broodmare prospect -- there are fewer places in the World that would be better for her!

Also, at the end of the day, this IS a business!  These animals are bred to be racehorses and breeding prospects.  I guess what I'm saying is that I understand where you are coming from -- and think it's also excellent -- but I just don't see what these people did that was wrong...it's okay to keep the horse, or sell her!

I just hope she has some good young ones!

Best,
EW
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« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2006, 08:38:40 PM »

In my opinion it was a bad business decision! Bunny Lake is in foal to RocknRoll Hanover. That foal will be sold for a good sum of money.
I think the people at Hanover were more than happy to write that check!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember reading an article about the owners and the upcoming sale of the horse.  Of course
they were torn about it but they indicated they were not in the breeding business and wanted to make a proper business decision.   I think they made a very wise decision.  Hanover is the best
place in the business and the horse will be well cared for for the rest of her breeding life. 

Obviously the prior owners are welcome there ANYTIME to see her and they got $400,000
NOW to invest.   Given the time value of money, they could easily triple this money over the
next 7-10 years.   This is a business and a $400K check is pretty sweet to take.   

They can enjoy watching all of her offspring become successful and still see their horse
anytime they want.   

Smart move.
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Robin Clements
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2006, 10:15:13 PM »

Speculation or hindsight is great. But the fact of the matter is when your dealing with broodmares especially maidens your taking a chance. Look at the very nice Maudlin Hanover, bred to Artscape I think and died foaling the baby who by the way was so crooked legged they gave the colt away.you just never know once a mare goes to the breeding shed.
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sg
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2006, 11:23:01 PM »

    EDWARD ,   
                                    This is not a knock ! I understand that your a young man and eager to make a mark in your life financially and thats what most young people try to achieve its the American way ! but when you do make that mark in life you might have different values about a horse that you should have been proud to own as the owners of BUNNY LAKE a special horse and they are different ! naturally all horses deserve good treatment , but lets be honest some dont get good homes to live out there lives . so what if your an urban person ! there's nothing wrong with paying for the horses keep and going once a week and do a little more than petting the horse , how about you take the horse out for a nice walk and then let the horse frolic around in a nice inclosed paddock and if you really get to know the horse ? the horse may actually come to you when you have that bag of carrots and you just might enjoy a relationship of man and animal a little more fuller ! A person can have a fulfilling bond with an animal it does'nt have to be a dog ! sure BUNNY LAKE will have a nice home and the owners will have the cash and no worries and no obligations to go pet and brush the horse or watch him run around and bring her carrots that brought them 2,800.000 in earnings ! thats there right because they owned the horse and there business people period and obviously never really had a true attachment to the horse ! I know one thing when I found a home for my 8000 claimer heather molly and would go out there and brush her and do the other things I mentioned she was one happy mare ! just remember horses dont talk and dont have many horse friends if any , they just stand in a stall ! well I know one thing when my wife and I came you could look in mollys eyes and see how happy she was we arrived ! we had a good time and she sure enjoyed the visit . some people just enjoy the little things in life and some DONT !    I guess its all how we view lifes importance and what we do to enjoy it !  tell me if you get successful in life and own some horses if you feel the same way ?   
                                           geezer     RTP

               P S     Just send me a letter ! send via heaven if you get it back ?
                        well you know where I'm at then and I doubt if I'll have any mail priviledges at the ice cold lemonade stand I might be running !

                                               maroon

Well written RTP and I can tell you had very loving feelings, for your animal, I wish a lot of owners felt the same way about them when their careers are over.I know there is quite a few that do. But unfortunately there a lot that don't
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MWG
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2006, 09:18:03 AM »

After 32 reponses to this sensitive subject, wherein competing interests are of issue, the business side of horse racing (with sincere care for the animals) versus the personal/passionate interests of horse lovers (less concerned about the business side), it is refreshing and most encouraging to see debate, at BTW, held in such a civil manner. All the BTW members who have posted their beliefs on this topic should be commended both for their positions and the manner which they expressed themselves.
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Robin Clements
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2006, 09:41:48 AM »

Well said MWG
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Dan Villeky
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2006, 10:11:44 AM »

Nice bit of writing Phil.
I support your take on the subject and every time I look out the back window I feel that what we've done with a big, growthy gelding we bought t an Indiana sale five years ago, was the "right thing".
"Punch" turned out to be just too big to race consistantly and stay sound. He finally went to hitting his knees and although we 'Q'd" him in :59 at the Red Mile after a couple of turnouts and a $150 pair of knee boots, we sent him home---literally.
He's a great add to our "back yard", loves the dog, and abides the grandkids. He's just a great old horse that was lucky to find a home on our 6 acres along with a "walker" and her 2yo filly.
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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2006, 10:42:10 AM »

Interesting how you can make statements about people you don't know , never met, never talked to.


Actually NJ you are WRONG again. But then again you usually are. I went to the Horse Park and went to the Hall of Champions. Nice place, you should go. After the speaker walked us thru the area, I posed a question. I asked her if the horse park ever turns down some horses. She said yes. I asked any come to mind. It didn't take her 3 seconds to come up with RBT. I ask why. It wasn't the horse she said, it was the PEOPLE ASSOCIATED with the horse. Guess who she mentioned geezer.

You notice Greg hasn't responded. NJ, I suggest you get lippo suction on your brain. It might remove that BIG M stench cloud in there. But then again, you might like it.

For those of you that have not been to the KY Horse Park, it is WELL WORTH the trip. It covers all breeds and goes back in time.

Who was your sire NJ Roll Eyes.   Leader Pick or Zip Tar is my pick. In case you don't know these 2 sires, they were quite popular in Michigan and Canada in the 70's. Most of them were "QUICK" off the gate but had no stretch run. Sound familiar NJ. It should.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2006, 03:58:49 PM »

Actually NJ you are WRONG again. But then again you usually are. I went to the Horse Park and went to the Hall of Champions. Nice place, you should go. After the speaker walked us thru the area, I posed a question. I asked her if the horse park ever turns down some horses. She said yes. I asked any come to mind. It didn't take her 3 seconds to come up with RBT. I ask why. It wasn't the horse she said, it was the PEOPLE ASSOCIATED with the horse. Guess who she mentioned geezer.

You notice Greg hasn't responded. NJ, I suggest you get lippo suction on your brain. It might remove that BIG M stench cloud in there. But then again, you might like it.

For those of you that have not been to the KY Horse Park, it is WELL WORTH the trip. It covers all breeds and goes back in time.

Who was your sire NJ Roll Eyes.   Leader Pick or Zip Tar is my pick. In case you don't know these 2 sires, they were quite popular in Michigan and Canada in the 70's. Most of them were "QUICK" off the gate but had no stretch run. Sound familiar NJ. It should.

Once again you prove that you're either illiterate or psychotic.

When I said "Interesting how you can make statements about people you don't know , never met, never talked to," I was obviously referring to Monte Gelrod, Luc Ouellette and David Scharf, not some person you talked to at the KY Horse Park. Anyone with a second grader's reading comprehension skill would understand that.

Not only that, you took a perfectly good discussion and tried to derail it by bringing up something that has to do with your personal beef with Gelrod, etc.


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FreeLegged
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« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2006, 05:42:53 PM »

this is just an idea. daileydaley and njhorseman, why dont you put each other on ignore. it seems like every post turns into you 2 bickering. disagreeing from time to time is natural but it seems like it never ends with you two.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2006, 06:11:52 PM »

Once again you prove that you're either illiterate or psychotic.

When I said "Interesting how you can make statements about people you don't know , never met, never talked to," I was obviously referring to Monte Gelrod, Luc Ouellette and David Scharf, not some person you talked to at the KY Horse Park. Anyone with a second grader's reading comprehension skill would understand that.

Not only that, you took a perfectly good discussion and tried to derail it by bringing up something that has to do with your personal beef with Gelrod, etc.

This question is easily solved. Where did the horse end up NJ geezer Grin.

It wasn't your backyard, it wasn't with David Scharf and it wasn't Monte.

TRUST ME when I tell you LUC stepped in and SAVED the DAY. Get rid of the murphy blinds, the large shadow roll and BELIEVE once in a while.

It would do you a world of GOOD.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2006, 08:18:31 PM »

this is just an idea. daileydaley and njhorseman, why dont you put each other on ignore. it seems like every post turns into you 2 bickering. disagreeing from time to time is natural but it seems like it never ends with you two.

We can make it a 3 way, if you want to jump in.  Wink
What the hell would I have to do if I stopped arguing with him?  Grin
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FreeLegged
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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2006, 08:20:29 PM »

We can make it a 3 way, if you want to jump in.  Wink
What the hell would I have to do if I stopped arguing with him?  Grin

NJ-
Nah, I dont like to argue. But thanks for the offer! 
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