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Author Topic: Meadowlands to put 2 Amateur races on the betting card friday  (Read 2794 times)
edwardwilliam
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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2006, 01:20:21 PM »

EW:
As a word of advice, if I were you, I'd stop explaining it for as long as part of the explanation says "Some of my handle goes to off-shore books."

I'm not ashamed of the fact, especially considering what I handle into the pools.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2006, 01:22:03 PM »

Normally a small % of the total purse. Depends on the race.

No...in harness racing the stakes payments usually make up the vast majority of the purse. Tomorrow night's Governors Cup is a pretty typical example. Horse owners paid a total of $393,650 in stakes payments and declaration fees for the race, which carries total purse payments (2 eliminations heats and the final) of $490,000.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2006, 01:22:57 PM »

How many times do I have to explain this...I bet bunches of money -- RIGHT INTO THE POOLS -- through rebate shops...that pay an increased simulcast rate.

You are right more of your money goes to the track you bet if you bet through a rebate shop with higher rate. But your rebate still comes out of some horsemans purse account somewhere. In your case likely the runners at Kentucky Downs. Thats where rebates come from a unpaid purse account somewhere. Don't ever forget it.

Still since Tennessee has no track or OTB of its own and its a long drive to Kentucky you likely wouldn't bet as much. Its better to have you betting in a pooled rebate shop than not at all.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2006, 01:25:11 PM »

You are right more of your money goes to the track you bet if you bet through a rebate shop with higher rate. But your rebate still comes out of some horsemans purse account somewhere. In your case likely the runners at Kentucky Downs. Thats where rebates come from a unpaid purse account somewhere. Don't ever forget it.

Still since Tennessee has no track or OTB of its own and its a long drive to Kentucky you likely wouldn't bet as much. Its better to have you betting in a pooled rebate shop than not at all.

What about online betting?  Where does that money "come" from?

Best,
EW
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Phlegm Wad
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2006, 01:27:55 PM »

PAUL IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ...

we started with a conversation about handicapping the first 2 races at the meadowlands tonight .. the EW the dingleberry breaks in with out its bad because it takes money out of the purse acct and handle...like he gives a rat's ass about the handle... like he is holier than thou

then its revealed that he bets offshore and is part of the problem and he has been caught in his web of bull .. and you are right.. he should STOP TRYING TO EXPLAIN IT AWAY ... HE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM by sending money OFFSHORE.. he is part of the problem in harness racing PERIOD.

People like you are part of the problem EW... not part of the solution.

Now go back to the dogs or Tbreds or sports betting ... and whatever rock you crawl back into and call home.

And take Pauls advice.... SHUT UP .. cuz every time you try to explain it, you sound like a bigger and bigger FOOL

« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 01:30:30 PM by Phlegm Wad » Report to moderator   Logged
tonymfan
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2006, 01:30:39 PM »

No...in harness racing the stakes payments usually make up the vast majority of the purse. Tomorrow night's Governors Cup is a pretty typical example. Horse owners paid a total of $393,650 in stakes payments and declaration fees for the race, which carries total purse payments (2 eliminations heats and the final) of $490,000.

Some of them that's true. Especially the 2yo races. The 4 stakes tomorrow are good examples. How do total nomination fees stack up against all legs of purses in the more numerous small stakes like the Charles Singer?
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tonymfan
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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2006, 01:34:36 PM »

What about online betting?  Where does that money "come" from?

Licensed U.S. online betting companies pay some of the purse rake back in source fees. Mostly it's the same their profit comes out of track commissions and purses. Doing business with one of them if your local horsemen and track don't have a revenue deal is the same as using an offshore rebate house.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2006, 01:40:48 PM »

Some of them that's true. Especially the 2yo races. The 4 stakes tomorrow are good examples. How do total nomination fees stack up against all legs of purses in the more numerous small stakes like the Charles Singer?

The payments for the Charles Singer totaled $26,500, but the late closers for horses of modest accomplishment really serve a different purpose than the Grand Circuit type stakes. The late closers are used to ensure they have enough horses to fill race cards during the colder months of the year when fewer horses are racing. By filling more races, the track is able to generate more handle, which helps make up for whatever additional purse money that might be laid out. The purses that these horses race for in the preliminary legs are not much higher, if at all, than the purses would  be for overnight races they could have otherwise raced in. The stakes payments go into the purse for the final.

The winter late closers were the brainchild of Joe DeFrank, and helped sustain the Meadowlands in the otherwise bleak winter months.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2006, 01:45:30 PM »

PAUL IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ...

we started with a conversation about handicapping the first 2 races at the meadowlands tonight .. the EW the dingleberry breaks in with out its bad because it takes money out of the purse acct and handle...like he gives a rat's ass about the handle... like he is holier than thou

then its revealed that he bets offshore and is part of the problem and he has been caught in his web of bull .. and you are right.. he should STOP TRYING TO EXPLAIN IT AWAY ... HE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM by sending money OFFSHORE.. he is part of the problem in harness racing PERIOD.

People like you are part of the problem EW... not part of the solution.

Now go back to the dogs or Tbreds or sports betting ... and whatever rock you crawl back into and call home.

And take Pauls advice.... SHUT UP .. cuz every time you try to explain it, you sound like a bigger and bigger FOOL



You clearly aren't functioning on a mental level to understand my posts.  I bet money -- plenty -- into the pools...paying a higher simulcast fee than nearly all other bettors online and in out-of-State OTBs.

Best,
EW
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Phlegm Wad
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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2006, 02:02:20 PM »

now here's a legit reason why the Billings races should NOT be on the card tonight ... lets take the weather - no problem.. except that there are people coming from the midwest for this  - bad weather out there - bad weather here.

is there a chance that some of these dudes who are flying in wont be able to either get out of midwest, or get into newark airport?

if so what do they do? if this was an overnight event and the driver didnt show they could just throw another driver on.  but can they do that here?  this is the finals of a DRIVERS competition and, as I understand it they couldnt just *** another driver on because the people who are in these 2 races have specifically qualfied to drive in them.

what happens then?  judges scratches?  then instead of 12 horse fields we have short fields?  That wouldnt be good.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2006, 02:23:30 PM »

The payments for the Charles Singer totaled $26,500, but the late closers for horses of modest accomplishment really serve a different purpose than the Grand Circuit type stakes. The late closers are used to ensure they have enough horses to fill race cards during the colder months of the year when fewer horses are racing. By filling more races, the track is able to generate more handle, which helps make up for whatever additional purse money that might be laid out. The purses that these horses race for in the preliminary legs are not much higher, if at all, than the purses would  be for overnight races they could have otherwise raced in. The stakes payments go into the purse for the final.

The winter late closers were the brainchild of Joe DeFrank, and helped sustain the Meadowlands in the otherwise bleak winter months.

You made your point more of the stakes purses comes from noms than I thought.

The question is still if all the "added" money that's put into stakes is covered by the betting on them. Let's say the two previous $15,000 legs of the Singer paid for themselves. Will the betting on it tonight cover the $25,000 added of the total or will that be money that came out of the general purse account? The same as EW thinks the Billings races won't pay for themselves.

Same for the Governor's Cup. Did betting on those races elims and tomorrow cover the entire $100,000 shortfall or is some coming out of the general purse account?

 
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2006, 02:33:17 PM »

You made your point more of the stakes purses comes from noms than I thought.

The question is still if all the "added" money that's put into stakes is covered by the betting on them. Let's say the two previous $15,000 legs of the Singer paid for themselves. Will the betting on it tonight cover the $25,000 added of the total or will that be money that came out of the general purse account? The same as EW thinks the Billings races won't pay for themselves.

Same for the Governor's Cup. Did betting on those races elims and tomorrow cover the entire $100,000 shortfall or is some coming out of the general purse account?

You can't equate stakes races to Billings races.  The mere fact that those series and stakes exist add value to horses, and bring a more quality product to the BigM -- especially during this season.

The Billings horses come for one start, and really add nothing to the mix.

These are not one in the same.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2006, 02:41:05 PM »

You made your point more of the stakes purses comes from noms than I thought.

The question is still if all the "added" money that's put into stakes is covered by the betting on them. Let's say the two previous $15,000 legs of the Singer paid for themselves. Will the betting on it tonight cover the $25,000 added of the total or will that be money that came out of the general purse account? The same as EW thinks the Billings races won't pay for themselves.

Same for the Governor's Cup. Did betting on those races elims and tomorrow cover the entire $100,000 shortfall or is some coming out of the general purse account?

 

A part of the purse account is set aside to fund the stakes program as a whole. It's not as if an attempt is made to match the purse for a particular stake with the wagering handle it might attract.  There are more global benefits to the whole program. In addition to attracting the horses that fill the late closers themselves, the stakes series also attract overnight horses from the stables that race in the series. If you're based in, say, Chicago and have a couple of horses paid in to the late closers, you're probably going to bring in a few overnight horses too. Again, these horses will fill races, allowing the track to offer more attractive betting races with bigger fields and generate more handle that way.

The Grand Circuit-type stakes races also mean increased prestige and create an aura of top shelf racing, which again generates more handle because the betting public is more attracted to what it perceives to be "quality" racing.  As the pool grows, serious bettors wade in because they correctly see that there is more money to be made.

It becomes a "success breeds success" cycle. "Better" racing/bigger pools attract more betting, yields bigger purses, attracts better horses, etc.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2006, 02:49:24 PM »

You can't equate stakes races to Billings races.  The mere fact that those series and stakes exist add value to horses, and bring a more quality product to the BigM -- especially during this season.

The Billings horses come for one start, and really add nothing to the mix.

These are not one in the same.

Best,
EW

EW:

The people who race in the Billings are true lovers of the sport. They put huge sums of money and hours of backbreaking work into owning or training horses. To reward them with a few minutes of glory on the continent's most prestigious stage at the cost of a few dollars in handle is well worth the investment. If you don't understand that, I feel sorry for you.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2006, 03:02:02 PM »

EW:

The people who race in the Billings are true lovers of the sport. They put huge sums of money and hours of backbreaking work into owning or training horses. To reward them with a few minutes of glory on the continent's most prestigious stage at the cost of a few dollars in handle is well worth the investment. If you don't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

I'm all for rewarding them -- I simply don't understand why the race needs to be wagering...that's all.

Best,
EW
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tonymfan
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« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2006, 03:20:15 PM »

You can't equate stakes races to Billings races.  The mere fact that those series and stakes exist add value to horses, and bring a more quality product to the BigM -- especially during this season.

The Billings horses come for one start, and really add nothing to the mix.

These are not one in the same.

We are getting far afield and into things no one can prove. The original claim was simply  

Does anyone care about the purse account -- which will be shorted somewhat (however slightly, it's simply the point of the matter) by these races being carded?

My point of the matter is that stakes also short the general purse account to some extent but no one argues much against them. They don't pay for themselves in betting if you look at it on a race to race basis. They short the account however slightly.

When you start arguing intangibles that's the realm of opinion. Maybe there's some people that think the amatuer races on the card is part of the overall picture of success like NJ horseman describes. Who's opinion is right theirs or yours? If you want to say you don'tlike them that's O.K. Don't argue the issue on the basis of some minor lost handle is my only point. There's many other races that do it also.

A question about the handle reported on the Big M site. Due to this thread I looked at it for betting on the 3 Snow Angels. If you add up all pools in all 10 races it doesn't tally to the "Total Handle" at the top I don't think. I might be blind but added twice! What do those three numbers at the top of the charts mean?
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Phlegm Wad
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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2006, 03:24:58 PM »

You can't equate stakes races to Billings races.  The mere fact that those series and stakes exist add value to horses, and bring a more quality product to the BigM -- especially during this season.

The Billings horses come for one start, and really add nothing to the mix.

These are not one in the same.

Best,
EW


More drivel from EW the idiot .... Billings owners bring alot to the mix you moron...alot of these guys own alot of horses that help fill cards at various tracks you miopic little PRICK.  These guys pay trainers and grooms and everything and help keep the whole sport alive so that feminine hygeine products like YOU can wire money to your offshore account and wager.  In fact a number of the people driving in races today own horses that race at Meadowlands ... so shut up and stop belittling them and saying that they add nothing.  YOU add nothing..well, let me correct that - you add NOISE.  You add the equivalent of static to a radio station.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 03:26:53 PM by Phlegm Wad » Report to moderator   Logged
edwardwilliam
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« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2006, 03:40:09 PM »


More drivel from EW the idiot .... Billings owners bring alot to the mix you moron...alot of these guys own alot of horses that help fill cards at various tracks you miopic little PRICK.  These guys pay trainers and grooms and everything and help keep the whole sport alive so that feminine hygeine products like YOU can wire money to your offshore account and wager.  In fact a number of the people driving in races today own horses that race at Meadowlands ... so shut up and stop belittling them and saying that they add nothing.  YOU add nothing..well, let me correct that - you add NOISE.  You add the equivalent of static to a radio station.

So Billings owners should be favored over any other owners, because?

Best,
EW
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2006, 03:40:34 PM »


It becomes a "success breeds success" cycle. "Better" racing/bigger pools attract more betting, yields bigger purses, attracts better horses, etc.

"UNTIL the BOTTOM falls OUT". And it has at BM Downs.

NJ - I will give you credit. You are 1 loyal fool. Have a good day.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2006, 03:42:34 PM »

We are getting far afield and into things no one can prove. The original claim was simply 

My point of the matter is that stakes also short the general purse account to some extent but no one argues much against them. They don't pay for themselves in betting if you look at it on a race to race basis. They short the account however slightly.

When you start arguing intangibles that's the realm of opinion. Maybe there's some people that think the amatuer races on the card is part of the overall picture of success like NJ horseman describes. Who's opinion is right theirs or yours? If you want to say you don'tlike them that's O.K. Don't argue the issue on the basis of some minor lost handle is my only point. There's many other races that do it also.

A question about the handle reported on the Big M site. Due to this thread I looked at it for betting on the 3 Snow Angels. If you add up all pools in all 10 races it doesn't tally to the "Total Handle" at the top I don't think. I might be blind but added twice! What do those three numbers at the top of the charts mean?

The Total Handle includes money bet in NJ on simulcast events, I believe.  You can get the actual handle on the Big M card by adding all the pools.

By the way, I never argued against them on the basis of lost handle.  I simply mentioned the fact, and then One Track Wally had to blow things out of proportion.

Best,
EW
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njhorseman
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« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2006, 03:46:09 PM »



A question about the handle reported on the Big M site. Due to this thread I looked at it for betting on the 3 Snow Angels. If you add up all pools in all 10 races it doesn't tally to the "Total Handle" at the top I don't think. I might be blind but added twice! What do those three numbers at the top of the charts mean?

Meadowlands Live Handle: $235,142  = amount bet on Big M races on track  

Total Handle: $1,882,962 = amount bet on Big M races from all sources

On-site Handle: $1,011,935 = amount bet at the Big M on all races they carried that night (Big M plus incoming simulcast signals)

I believe the pool amounts given after each race are net (after take out).
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tonymfan
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« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2006, 03:59:37 PM »

Total Handle: $1,882,962 = amount bet on Big M races from all sources

I believe the pool amounts given after each race are net (after take out).

That could account for the discrepancy. Stilll doesn't square my pool total unless overall takeout rate is only 15%  No claim my pool total was right!

By the way, I never argued against them on the basis of lost handle.

Isn't that what this meant?

The betting handle funds part of the purses.  The handle will be down for these races.  This will negatively impact the purse account.

This discussion is obviously over my head!!!!! Over and out!
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Phlegm Wad
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« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2006, 04:03:19 PM »

So Billings owners should be favored over any other owners, because?

Best,
EW


I didn't say they should be favored over other owners.  I said they should be exempt from abuse from (and favored over) punks like you who contribute NOTHING POSITIVE to this sport except drivel.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2006, 04:08:49 PM »

That could account for the discrepancy. Stilll doesn't square my pool total unless overall takeout rate is only 15%  No claim my pool total was right!


When I addeed it up, it came to about 18% total, which would be about right.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2006, 04:44:36 PM »

When I addeed it up, it came to about 18% total, which would be about right.

Even 18% seems low for overall. Considering the mix of pools. Tri take is 25% isn't it? It's usually as big as the WPS or exacta pool.

Close enough for government work.
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