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Author Topic: Hawthorne surface  (Read 3690 times)
Valuist
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« on: November 23, 2006, 12:30:48 AM »

What a joke the track was on Wednesday.  People thought the CD track was biased Breeders Cup day?  That was NOTHING to how great the rail was at Hawthorne on Wednesday.  Do they even have a maintenance crew?  They must've forgotten to come to work for Wednesday.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 06:02:58 AM »

Valuist, your ire regarding Chicago-area racetrack surface conditions seems to be in inverse proportion to how many fatal breakdowns are happening on a specific surface.

Hawthorne had no breakdowns nor van-offs yesterday, and you get your *** in a wad; piles of dead horses all over the track at AP this summer got this comment from you:

Arlington has had a problem with its dirt track for years; we just didn't see the large number of breakdowns in other years.  But the track has been biased with a dead rail for several years.

Where was your outrage then, I wonder?
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mel4600
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 11:21:57 AM »

Why can't we have a safe, honest, even surface? I am thankful for less breakdowns since that is the number one priority, however, why must the track be so uneven and unfair?
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 12:19:05 PM »

Why can't we have a safe, honest, even surface? I am thankful for less breakdowns since that is the number one priority, however, why must the track be so uneven and unfair?

Maybe track maintenance and grooming is an inexact science due to the many variables from day to day.
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mel4600
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 01:03:42 PM »

Maybe track maintenance and grooming is an inexact science due to the many variables from day to day.

Maybe is an excuse word for not knowing. "Maybe" we in Chicago need to treat track maintenance as a science. (I admit I do not know)
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 01:04:51 PM »

Why can't we have a safe, honest, even surface? I am thankful for less breakdowns since that is the number one priority, however, why must the track be so uneven and unfair?

1. The rail is arguably the most used part of the track and requires the most tinkering.

2. Race tracks are banked, and as such, material from the paths away from the rail tends to migrate down toward the rail; as a result, track maintenance folks have to constantly pull material away from the rail the even out the surface. Take away too little, and you have the dreaded "dead rail"; take away too much, and you have the Wednesday 11/22 Hawthorne rail. It will be corrected Friday, you'll see.

That said, my initial response in this thread had nothing to do with the current state of the track at Hawthorne. It's just that I'm goddamned sick and tired of posters coming out here and jumping on Hawthorne with both feet whenever they do even the slightest thing wrong, and then essentially giving AP a free pass when they commit those very same transgressions....and worse ones.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 01:08:07 PM »

Maybe is an excuse word for not knowing. "Maybe" we in Chicago need to treat track maintenance as a science. (I admit I do not know)

Track maintenance can be treated as a science about as much as horse wagering and weather forecasting, chief -- no "maybe" about it: in the end, after all of the plannin' and calculatin' and cipherin', stuff happens.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 01:08:40 PM »

Maybe is an excuse word for not knowing. "Maybe" we in Chicago need to treat track maintenance as a science. (I admit I do not know)

I admit I don't know either. I'm not a track super or tractor driver.

Do you know of any tracks that don't show biases from time to time? In other words, someplace where track maintenance HAS become an exact science, preferably somewhere that has the same kind of weather variances as during Hawthorne's season(s). We could steal their guys away.
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Valuist
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 01:11:53 PM »

Mel-

First off, I've criticized Arlington's track in the past.  In fact, in a post YOU quoted, I talked about the prolonged dead rail at Arlington.  So back off, ***.

There's plenty of people who don't follow Chicago racing who don't even know what biases are.  Why?  Because there aren't that many tracks that are biased nowadays.  WHat ever happened to the prolonged dead rail for years at the Belmont meet?  Its gone.  It just takes work to get it right.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 01:16:21 PM »

  Because there aren't that many tracks that are biased nowadays.  WHat ever happened to the prolonged dead rail for years at the Belmont meet?  Its gone.  It just takes work to get it right.

Keeneland's is gone now, too. They worked on that one for years, the best track guys in the country. Now they put down the polytrack voila! it's gone.

Now if the guys in NY could just do something about that Aqueduct inner in the winter ...
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mel4600
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 01:16:53 PM »

I admit I don't know either. I'm not a track super or tractor driver.

Do you know of any tracks that don't show biases from time to time? In other words, someplace where track maintenance HAS become an exact science, preferably somewhere that has the same kind of weather variances as during Hawthorne's season(s). We could steal their guys away.

Fairgrounds, Oaklawn, Saratoga, Belmont, Gulfstream and Louisiana Downs to name a few. There can always be a bias on a given day due to moisture and other things, however, that just usuall lasts a day or two. Most races are being run in 112's 113's 114's. In the middle of December they will peel Hawthorne and you will see $5K claimers going in the 109's.
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mel4600
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 01:19:42 PM »

Mel-

First off, I've criticized Arlington's track in the past.  In fact, in a post YOU quoted, I talked about the prolonged dead rail at Arlington.  So back off, ***.

There's plenty of people who don't follow Chicago racing who don't even know what biases are.  Why?  Because there aren't that many tracks that are biased nowadays.  WHat ever happened to the prolonged dead rail for years at the Belmont meet?  Its gone.  It just takes work to get it right.

Before you call someone an *** make sure you read the posts correctly. As a matter of fact I was agreeing with you. Get your nose out of the funny powder and learn how to read.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 01:40:37 PM »

Fairgrounds, Oaklawn, Saratoga, Belmont, Gulfstream and Louisiana Downs to name a few. There can always be a bias on a given day due to moisture and other things, however, that just usuall lasts a day or two.

Well, isn't that what we're talking about here? The one day bias at Hawthorne yesterday?
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mel4600
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 01:50:44 PM »

Well, isn't that what we're talking about here? The one day bias at Hawthorne yesterday?
LOL if you believe that then go ahead. They are controlling the bias. Wait till the middle of December and see how fast the times get. Look I like Hawthorne and want them to improve racing. What made the surface like it is, cold. rain, snow? None of those, it was the maintenance crew.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 02:16:38 PM »

LOL if you believe that then go ahead. They are controlling the bias. Wait till the middle of December and see how fast the times get. Look I like Hawthorne and want them to improve racing. What made the surface like it is, cold. rain, snow? None of those, it was the maintenance crew.

Maybe they wanted to hit the Pick 6 all for themselves, bwa ha ha!  Roll Eyes

P.S. Does anyone besides me think part of the fast times every December might have something to do with freezing weather and rock hard soil?

P.P.S. It just struck me that if is true that "they" are controlling the track bias, it's already a fine science.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 02:26:52 PM by CLOCKERTERRY » Report to moderator   Logged
jrstark
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 02:24:40 PM »

Fairgrounds, Oaklawn, Saratoga, Belmont, Gulfstream and Louisiana Downs to name a few. There can always be a bias on a given day due to moisture and other things, however, that just usuall lasts a day or two. Most races are being run in 112's 113's 114's. In the middle of December they will peel Hawthorne and you will see $5K claimers going in the 109's.

Saratoga and Belmont don't run in the winter.  The others are southern tracks.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 02:31:08 PM »

Saratoga and Belmont don't run in the winter.  The others are southern tracks.


No one besides me thinks Oaklawn is an extremely speed biased track? Or that GP, before it got replaced, had some serious rail bias going on?

Louisiana Downs is "cheatin' jockey" biased. There's also the "Cole Norman bias". Grin
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Chartwell
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2006, 02:33:15 PM »

If Hawthorne really wanted to do what was good for Illinois racing they would let the buggy's go and put in a polytrack that would undoubtably be safer and more consistant than what we have now. Who knows that might even put enough pressure on Arlington to put in a polytrack and get us on even footing with California, Keeneland and Turfway. What owner would not rather run for the same money at Turfway on a safe track as opposed to a frozen track at Hawthorne in December? However that would cost millions and last I looked ownership in Illinois was not interested in investing in Illinois racing without slots! Seems like an endless circle that is destined to crash and burn!!!!
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mel4600
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 03:00:15 PM »

Saratoga and Belmont don't run in the winter.  The others are southern tracks.


What does that have to do with having an honest race track? No excuse for the way the track is now and you can't use weather. An excuse is an admission of failure.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 03:07:46 PM »

What does that have to do with having an honest race track? No excuse for the way the track is now and you can't use weather. An excuse is an admission of failure.

What do you mean, "the way the track is now"? The thread is about how it was yesterday. I didn't read anyone complaining about the races last week, for instance. I played Sunday and had no complaints about bias, even though I lost on the day.

I have to ask this, did you have a horse in yesterday?
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mel4600
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 03:20:38 PM »

What do you mean, "the way the track is now"? The thread is about how it was yesterday. I didn't read anyone complaining about the races last week, for instance. I played Sunday and had no complaints about bias, even though I lost on the day.

I have to ask this, did you have a horse in yesterday?

What I mean by "the way the track is now" is that the weather has been great and should not be a variant. We can't use bad weather for an excuse.Yes I did have a horse in yesterday. I have horses running almost every week and every year and my complaint for Hawthorne is that they can't get a handle on consistent surface. Polytrack would be a great improvement for Hawthorne racing and it is the track I grew up at to love horse racing. I want Hawthorne to be successful.
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Trackman
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 03:36:54 PM »

"If Hawthorne really wanted to do what was good for Illinois racing they would let the buggy's go and put in a polytrack that would undoubtably be safer and more consistant than what we have now."

I still don't know why everyone is sold on polytrack. After two-maybe three years of experience it hasn't proven diddly to me. I know it's not poly (it's artificial) but Woodbine has had to close early and Hollywood (not poly) had to cancel workouts. Let's see some results before we canonize artificial surfaces.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2006, 03:40:04 PM »

What I mean by "the way the track is now" is that the weather has been great and should not be a variant. We can't use bad weather for an excuse.

I don't know where you live but where we are it rained between Sunday and Wednesday. It was also warmer and less windy Wed. than it was Sunday. Of course that means nothing at Hawthorne, but that's a possible weather change.

Quote
Yes I did have a horse in yesterday. I have horses running almost every week and every year and my complaint for Hawthorne is that they can't get a handle on consistent surface.

The races yesterday, did they have exactly the same horses in exactly the same health condition running against each other, ridden exactly the same by exactly the same jocks, given exactly the same instructions by exactly the same trainers, and getting exactly the same post position and exactly the same break out of the gate, as some other day in the past that we can define as the baseline? It's my belief that those things make some difference in the running and outcome of races, as well as bias, but call me old fashioned on that.

Quote
Polytrack would be a great improvement for Hawthorne racing and it is the track I grew up at to love horse racing. I want Hawthorne to be successful.

I want Hawthorne to be successful as well. Just not sure I agree on the manipulation of bias. If they do it on dirt as you claim what difference would polytrack make? Scrape some off the inside and pile up to the outside and it's the same result.

Have a good day and happy holiday Mel (and all BTW posters even maladjusted). The turkey is close to done here and it's time to get busy on the sides. Then nap time on the couch in front of football.
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mel4600
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2006, 03:41:59 PM »

How about Turfway? They have poly and that is the only artificial surface I'm sold on. I believe every track that had a cold winter meet should have it for safety first and consistency second.
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mel4600
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2006, 03:48:23 PM »

Clocker,

It rained Wednesday (yesterday) at Hawthorne? I mut have been taking a nap.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2006, 04:00:26 PM »

Clocker,

It rained Wednesday (yesterday) at Hawthorne? I mut have been taking a nap.

Not that I know, but I wasn't there.

It rained Monday or Tuesday by my house, meaning it also might have rained at Hawthorne, possibly meaning a different moisture content in the track by Wednesday than what was there the last racing day, Sunday, also possibly meaning a different maintenance program during those few days than the few days that had come before, all of which might be reflected in the final track condition by Wednesday racing.

Do you know the entire detailed weather history at Hawthorne between Sunday and Wednesday, and what the recommended track maintenance steps are to translate those into "fair track" as you perceive it?
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2006, 04:10:47 PM »

Those of you who have Scott McManniss' ear, this sounds like a great topic for a "news you can use" column in the program. An interview with the track super to say what goes into preparing the track under what weather conditions, and how that might affect the subsequent running of races.
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Trackman
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2006, 06:15:26 PM »

"What a joke the track was on Wednesday.  People thought the CD track was biased Breeders Cup day?  That was NOTHING to how great the rail was at Hawthorne on Wednesday.  Do they even have a maintenance crew?  They must've forgotten to come to work for Wednesday."

Why is that a problem? Anyone who watched the first two or three races could have spotted the bias and made some money.
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Moon
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2006, 07:20:40 PM »

Those of you who have Scott McManniss' ear, this sounds like a great topic for a "news you can use" column in the program. An interview with the track super to say what goes into preparing the track under what weather conditions, and how that might affect the subsequent running of races.

I've seen this several times over the past 20 years on one or other of the racing shows. It isn't like when they talk to the Sox grounds keeper. It's mostly just hemming and hawing and like talking to your garbage man about recycling. Not much going on there.
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David
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2006, 08:02:39 PM »

If Hawthorne really wanted to do what was good for Illinois racing they would let the buggy's go and put in a polytrack that would undoubtably be safer and more consistant than what we have now. Who knows that might even put enough pressure on Arlington to put in a polytrack and get us on even footing with California, Keeneland and Turfway. What owner would not rather run for the same money at Turfway on a safe track as opposed to a frozen track at Hawthorne in December? However that would cost millions and last I looked ownership in Illinois was not interested in investing in Illinois racing without slots! Seems like an endless circle that is destined to crash and burn!!!!

Maybe you can run harness on Poly after all, last week they had a test race on Keenelands poly track with harness horses, appeared promising but far from perfect.

http://www.harnessracing.com/news_detailed.php?id=5742
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Trackman
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2006, 08:38:46 PM »

"No one besides me thinks Oaklawn is an extremely speed biased track? Or that GP, before it got replaced, had some serious rail bias going on?

Louisiana Downs is "cheatin' jockey" biased. There's also the "Cole Norman bias". "

Terry,

I have to disagree with your OP comment. I've done well betting deep closers there. As far as GP, I agree. I also agree that ANY Louisiana track is in your words, a "cheatin' jockey" biased track." Trainers also (Michael Pino).  If you know the cheating trainers and jocks, you can make a lot of money. Sometimes handicapping is more reading between the lines than selecting the best horse.
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jrstark
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2006, 10:01:53 PM »

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Saratoga and Belmont don't run in the winter.  The others are southern tracks.

What does that have to do with having an honest race track? No excuse for the way the track is now and you can't use weather. An excuse is an admission of failure.

You wrote:
Quote from: mel4600 on Today at 12:16:53 PM
Quote
Fairgrounds, Oaklawn, Saratoga, Belmont, Gulfstream and Louisiana Downs to name a few. There can always be a bias on a given day due to moisture and other things, however, that just usuall lasts a day or two. Most races are being run in 112's 113's 114's. In the middle of December they will peel Hawthorne and you will see $5K claimers going in the 109's.

Where did you ask about an honest track?  You were asking about speed in December at a winter track vs. speed at other tracks.  That's what I responded to.
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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2006, 04:02:35 AM »

First of all there is no way Hawthorne is ever going to drop the harness meet, they make too much money from the harness meet, far more then on T-breds. Like Trackman I am not 100% sold on poly or any other kind of oly track yet. Too many problems at Hollywood already that need to be looked into and worked out. One thing to remember and kudos to Justin for pointing this out at the last meeting that when polytrack or any other artificial surface is put in ALL the areas must have the same surface, all the trails and paths to the track and the barns too as there cant be any "contamination" of the surface on the track. So larger area tracks like AP have far more areas in size to replace and thus makes it much more expensive for them to change over. Hawthorne wont do it as I said because they will not drop the harness meet.

Sure would have been nice if they were committed to staying where they are to have bought the Sportsmans land, taken down both tracks and rebuild going north and south instead of east and west as it is now. They could have had a much larger track, maybe in a set up like Woodbine with individual harness, t-bred and turf tracks.....oh well nice to dream lol
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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2006, 06:52:06 AM »

Jannine: Could you see if you can set up a seperate page for arguing like they have at Horse Argue. com. Thank You.
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Horse Voice
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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2006, 08:29:17 AM »

Jannine: Could you see if you can set up a seperate page for arguing like they have at Horse Argue. com. Thank You.

Janine: While you are at it, please see if you can set up a separate page for incoherent babble like they have at All_John Frank_All The Time.com. Thank you.       
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Moon
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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2006, 03:27:13 PM »

Ha! That was a good one, John Frank.

And another good one by Horse Voice.

Cheesy
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mel4600
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« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2006, 03:59:13 PM »

You wrote:
Quote from: mel4600 on Today at 12:16:53 PM
Where did you ask about an honest track?  You were asking about speed in December at a winter track vs. speed at other tracks.  That's what I responded to.


I have been talking about a consistent honest surface all along without changes day to day not attributed to weather.
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mel4600
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« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2006, 04:00:49 PM »

Jannine: Could you see if you can set up a seperate page for arguing like they have at Horse Argue. com. Thank You.

John,

We are not arguing here, we are having a good discussion about Hawthorne's racing surface.
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CLOCKERTERRY
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« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2006, 07:12:05 PM »

John,

We are not arguing here, we are having a good discussion about Hawthorne's racing surface.

Well, it isn't about John Frank and his many trials and tribulations at the hands of the cruel world, so obviously it's a waste of time on this horse racing forum.  Roll Eyes
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mel4600
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2006, 06:40:38 PM »

Since I criticized the surface earlier this week I now have to give them credit. The surface has been even and honest the last 2 days. Hope they can maintain it.
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John Frank
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2006, 06:58:32 PM »

Don't you get it. To confuse all you idiots,it's done on purpose. It all depends on what was decided previous night on which trainers and owners will win next day. And forget about shake for post positions. That is also put in order. And THEY WANT YOU TO *** ABOUT A BIAS. That takes away from what is really going on.
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Moon
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2006, 08:58:47 PM »

You know, if you are AT the track, you are allowed to go down to the rail and LOOK at the surface. After a few times looking at it, you will KNOW what the bias is.
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jrstark
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2006, 09:37:32 PM »

Since I criticized the surface earlier this week I now have to give them credit. The surface has been even and honest the last 2 days. Hope they can maintain it.

And how has the weather been lately?

That's why short summer meets have honest tracks too, the weather cooperates.
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