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Author Topic: NIce numbers for OPENING NIGHT NJ and Night 2. Sure.  (Read 3146 times)
tonymfan
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« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2006, 03:28:29 PM »

Maybe people are just fed up with all the BIG M / NJSEA bull.

But then again, did YOU get your HERPE$$ tests. I heard there was some tainted money in NJ. Once again, you have to spoon feed people. Try to think what's outside the box. Rather than what's in it. Ok.

JUST ONCE!

What was in your box was a claim that Yonkers is what's affecting the Big M handle. I thought outside your box and asked about the flat meets before Yonkers. You should be pleased master!

I don't buy your claim people are fed up with BIG M / NJSEA. Most people don't care about things like that. Beside your rants here I see no evidence anywhere that people feel that way.
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Esab
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« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2006, 03:33:26 PM »

What was in your box was a claim that Yonkers is what's affecting the Big M handle. I thought outside your box and asked about the flat meets before Yonkers. You should be pleased master!

I don't buy your claim people are fed up with BIG M / NJSEA. Most people don't care about things like that. Beside your rants here I see no evidence anywhere that people feel that way.


I agree that this negative business trend has nothing to do with some kind of revolt against Big M/NJSEA. That's a ridiculous leap.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2006, 04:07:21 PM »

People always stay away from things they like. Management always cuts back 20% when things are going well. Just more foolish thinking on my part.

I hope you Republicans got a chance to watch the HBO special the other night. They did an independent study on the vote count in Florida and Ohio during the BUSH FIXTA 1 and 2.

Guess what they found? They figured out how the vote count was manipulated in Florida. Those same machines were used in Ohio also in the past election when Kerry lost. And which state was the last to report in Ohio? Imagine that.

Just more prpoaganda.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2006, 04:15:53 PM »

People always stay away from things they like. Management always cuts back 20% when things are going well. Just more foolish thinking on my part.

The NJSEA has many problems that contributed to the announced cuts. Declines in racing revenue were just one factor. This article details.

http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/index.ssf?/base/business-4/116305429817070.xml&coll=1

Racing revenue is down at tracks everywhere. Is that also because people are fed up with the NJSEA?

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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2006, 04:40:17 PM »

The NJSEA has many problems that contributed to the announced cuts. Declines in racing revenue were just one factor. This article details.

http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/index.ssf?/base/business-4/116305429817070.xml&coll=1

Racing revenue is down at tracks everywhere. Is that also because people are fed up with the NJSEA?




But remember, this is WORLD CLASS RACING at its finest at the BIG M.

Maybe do you think, people are staying away because of they are tired of taking in the shorts, night after night, race after race. And the alternative is REGULATED GAMBLING thru slots.

I ask the question again, if you owned a casino, would you want the NJRC involved in any way, shape or form? The NJ Gaming Commission should step in and take a look. But then again, its the rat s watching the  rat s.

Drugs on the backside or training facility, not a problem. Just don't get caught too soon again, OK.

Try getting caught at the casino with drugs. You think it might be different. Try using counterfeit money.

You think you would get a DALEY deal?
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tonymfan
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« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2006, 05:09:33 PM »

Maybe do you think, people are staying away because of they are tired of taking in the shorts, night after night, race after race. And the alternative is REGULATED GAMBLING thru slots.

Part of it. People believe casino gambling is straight up. There are less people in the loop to blame for losses.

Add slots gambling requires no brains. If you lose you can try your "luck" again in less than a second. Casinos have buffets. Etc.

What other posters discussed above are true factors also. New Jersey competes against itself with account betting. It takes away from on track handle. Some people go outside the system to internet bookies for rebates. Usually big bettors.

There are many reasons handle on racing falls. It can't be pinned all on the NJSEA because it happens in every state.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2006, 05:27:53 PM »

Tony:   I learned something a LONG TIME AGO. When things are going good, this is when you KEEP the BALL ROLLING in your direction. Thru good promotional skills, good management, good enforcement, good foresight. None of which the BIG M has. NONE.

The BIG M was (and has been) going to milk the cow FOR AS LONG AS THEY COULD without doing SQUAT. WC Fields said it best. There's a SUCKER born EVERY MINUTE. Too bad the "tap dance" for the Big M is going the other direction. Many tracks were looking at the Meadowlands for that direction, that guidance, movement.

It didn't come. I really don't know how Dave Brower, Sam McKee and others can sit on that show and ask the questions they do without busting out and laughing with the answers they get. These guys always have a future. Used car salemen.

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tonymfan
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« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2006, 06:13:34 PM »

Tony:   I learned something a LONG TIME AGO. When things are going good, this is when you KEEP the BALL ROLLING in your direction. Thru good promotional skills, good management, good enforcement, good foresight. None of which the BIG M has. NONE.

The BIG M was (and has been) going to milk the cow FOR AS LONG AS THEY COULD without doing SQUAT. WC Fields said it best. There's a SUCKER born EVERY MINUTE. Too bad the "tap dance" for the Big M is going the other direction. Many tracks were looking at the Meadowlands for that direction, that guidance, movement.

It didn't come.

May be. It  has little to do with handle decrease. Bettors didn't wake up one day and say I'm so disappointed in the Big M and NJSEA.
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Buffaloboy
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« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2006, 06:39:44 PM »

I know what I can do. John Campbell's voice was dubbed. It wasn't really John's. It was a figment of my imagination. You have a 2 1/2 to 3 to 1 ratio, betting on a live card as opposed to simucasting at another track, Yonkers opening and LEDFORD coming back.

WHAT ELSE do you people need. BRAIL CARDS. Get real geezer.

There is one simple question that you and your friend are ducking:

1) Where is your proof that attendance and handle at The Meadowlands are down because of what John Campbell said, the Ledford matter or Yonkers' slots. You want to try to connect the two and say you predicted it a while ago but you haved shown us the reason for the drop.

Can you give us attendance and handle figures from Yonkers showing its absurdly high the forst few nights or even equal to the drop at The Meadowlands? How about somebody from the NJSEA or state saying they are deeply concerned about Yonkers success and the Meadoalands drop early on? How about a Bob Heydan or a Stan Bergstein saying they feel John Campbells comments or the Ledford arrests have hurt the Meadowlands.

You cna your pal ranting that you told us so doesnt cut it. For all you know, they industry downturn may have just caught up to The Meadowlands. Get back to me when you have something.
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« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2006, 06:44:22 PM »


Look Buffalo. The 2005 opener had 9 trots. 7 races had 7 or fewer starters. 4 races had odds-on favorites.
In no way, shape, or form was it a more attractive betting card than this year's opener.
Then you were provided with the opening Saturday 2005-2006 card to card numbers.
Going forward do the work yourself. Paste the following link into your browser and type in any dates you wish:

http://www.thebigm.com/results.asp?racedt=11/17/2006


It is absurd for anybody to say that a card with 12 or 13 races being stakes races and six of the 12 stakes being Breeders Crown races is weaker then the 2006 opener at The Meadowlands.

Next thing you will tell us is the Wednesday afternoon opener at Belmont Park is stronger then the Breeders Cup.
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When will Barn To Wire finally do the right thing and ban Clockerterry & Edwarren for their continued lies, anti-American & anti-semetic statements and their general disrutpive stupidity? 

The answer to a government thats too big is to stop feeding its growth. - President Ronald W. Reagan
Buffaloboy
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« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2006, 07:05:00 PM »

There's not a horseman or racetrack executive in NJ who wasn't expecting the opening of slots at Yonkers, coupled with the new slots in PA, to deal a serious blow to NJ racing.

Now that the day has finally arrived, we will have the proof to go to the governor and legislature to put the wheels in motion toward having slots at the Meadowlands. While I believe we will now be able to overcome the objections of the Atlantic City casinos, the political machine in NJ is a lumbering giant, and it may take years to actually get the slots in place. Look how long it took after the law was passed to get account betting, and the first OTB shops are just getting ready to open, years later.

I think the question is not whether we will have slots at the tracks in NJ, but how long it will take. While the state owned Meadowlands and Monmouth Park will be able to survive the delay, albeit with a diminished quality of racing, can Freehold survive a delay? I hope so, but I have my doubts.


I agree the question is not if New Jersey tries to counter Yonkers but when and I think the second question is not what they will do but how far they will go.

In my opinion, as long as the New Jersey legislature acts, the Meadowlands, even as we speak is in a far better position then Yonkers Raceway is.

Yonkers got their slot machines. The Meadowlands still has that weapon to use.

The next logical step is table games of some variety. Yes, at the moment that is far down the road but lets face it. Casinos with table games are legal in NJ. If any deal ever got worked out to give the Meadowlands even limited table games, Yonkers is dead.

Lastly, the Meadowlands has the room for expansion to allow slots and/or table games. The Sports Complex willlose the area once the Nets and Devils move and that is more room. Yonkers has far less room and they have used just about every inch plus they are already close to $300 million in debt now.

If the Meadowlands is run properly, they crush Yonkers and PA
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When will Barn To Wire finally do the right thing and ban Clockerterry & Edwarren for their continued lies, anti-American & anti-semetic statements and their general disrutpive stupidity? 

The answer to a government thats too big is to stop feeding its growth. - President Ronald W. Reagan
Esab
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« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2006, 07:57:39 PM »


Thru good promotional skills, good management, good enforcement, good foresight. None of which the BIG M has. NONE.

The BIG M was (and has been) going to milk the cow FOR AS LONG AS THEY COULD without doing SQUAT.


Let's see:
***M' has a 30-minute recap show aired on huge regional sports channel and on HRTV, a venture that is surely losing money because nobody wants to advertise on a harness racing show.
***M' has an amazing Web site (compared to garbage of other tracks).
***M' makes its archived races available for no charge through Race Replays.com
***M' has promotional low takeouts on Pick 6, PIck 4, etc.
***M' spends $$$ on advertising in New York market.

Conclusion
You, DD, have to be a jilted ex-Big M employee or somebody who was turned down for a job there.

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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2006, 09:23:54 PM »

Let's see:
***M' has a 30-minute recap show aired on huge regional sports channel and on HRTV, a venture that is surely losing money because nobody wants to advertise on a harness racing show.
***M' has an amazing Web site (compared to garbage of other tracks).
***M' makes its archived races available for no charge through Race Replays.com
***M' has promotional low takeouts on Pick 6, PIck 4, etc.
***M' spends $$$ on advertising in New York market.

Conclusion
You, DD, have to be a jilted ex-Big M employee or somebody who was turned down for a job there.

Gee another that makes my point. All this money spent but they can't control the drug activities. But then again, do they really want to. I wonder why? After NUMEROUS factual articles about drug issues at the BIG M, what will YOU think when Ledford is back.

Oh please explain.
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Grinder
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« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2006, 11:27:44 PM »

A lot has been said since my last post above, too much to deal with piece by piece, so in summary........

If suddenly, the states lowered their takeout to ....say... 8% from 20%....how does this hurt an off shore book? Unless the cuts are made AND rebates or bonuses are offered the gambler (which will never happen because remember there IS overhead in the real world) all that would happen is the offshore books frosting would become even thicker, and racetrack operators would be supplying the sugar. 

Im not defending the high takeout, believe ME!! Angry  But lowering it in and of itself is NO inducement to lure wagering dollars away from bookies.  If a trifecta pays $432 instead of $387 with the higher takeout, the book just pays the higher amount, and his enormous bottom line is decreased by 11% in a worst-case scenario. So what?  He still stands to make millions a year.

If you like harness racing, all Im saying is can you please just humor us idiots and put a few god damn dollars thru the windows, once in a while, so you have something to gamble on next year? 

Thank you
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Esab
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« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2006, 08:38:43 AM »

Gee another that makes my point. All this money spent but they can't control the drug activities. But then again, do they really want to. I wonder why? After NUMEROUS factual articles about drug issues at the BIG M, what will YOU think when Ledford is back.

Oh please explain.

Ledford has been out for about 9-10 months, right? How would you like to be suspended without pay from your job that long. Eric is probably out a half-million in income and has legal fees on top of that.
NJ has been very effective in this case. Do you want them to shoot the guy?
What's your favorite circuit? I bet I can name at least a dozen guys who have been set down for unsatisfactory drives, TCO2 positives, unable to regain licenses in various jurisdictions, etc.
M1 on its own -- clever and creative -- was able to make Rucker go away.
Fought like hell to make Morrill, Brennan and Parker sweat for as long as possible. (Do you really think Morrill wants to be where he is and do you think Parker really wanted to "retire.'') 

So, were you turned down for a job at M1? Is that the basis for these crazy rants?
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2006, 10:22:53 AM »

A lot has been said since my last post above, too much to deal with piece by piece, so in summary........

If suddenly, the states lowered their takeout to ....say... 8% from 20%....how does this hurt an off shore book? Unless the cuts are made AND rebates or bonuses are offered the gambler (which will never happen because remember there IS overhead in the real world) all that would happen is the offshore books frosting would become even thicker, and racetrack operators would be supplying the sugar. 

Im not defending the high takeout, believe ME!! Angry  But lowering it in and of itself is NO inducement to lure wagering dollars away from bookies.  If a trifecta pays $432 instead of $387 with the higher takeout, the book just pays the higher amount, and his enormous bottom line is decreased by 11% in a worst-case scenario. So what?  He still stands to make millions a year.

If you like harness racing, all Im saying is can you please just humor us idiots and put a few god damn dollars thru the windows, once in a while, so you have something to gamble on next year? 

Thank you

Although gamblers are mostly stupid, there's still a fair amount of risk that these off-shore books take -- especially given that the money, at most times, does not hit the pools.  If take out was lowered, it decreases their margin for error.  Also, it makes it more difficult to offer rebates that are all that enticing.  If take was cut 7-10%, Pinnacle would definitely be forced to lower their rebates from 7%, without question.  Why?  Because everyone is holding 7-10% more money, which makes it MUCH more likely for them to take a loss.

The real trick would be to recruit bettors ON-TRACK by offering distinct rebate advantages for attending live (and therefore helping the purse account and tracks the most).  For example, you could lower take 3-5% across the board, but then offer an additional 5% rebate on live wagers.  I would need to do in-depth research to find the exact price points, but something along these lines.

Once again, I want to stress that I'm talking ONLY about off-shore books that DO NOT pool.  Actual rebate shops, like those in ND, SD, ME, the indian reservations, and also those off-shore like IRG and RGS -- ARE FRIENDS OF THE HORSEMEN.  MILLIONS of dollars comes into the pools from these places, and to cut them off would instantly be detrimental to the sport.

Best,
EW
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2006, 10:24:15 AM »

Ledford has been out for about 9-10 months, right? How would you like to be suspended without pay from your job that long. Eric is probably out a half-million in income and has legal fees on top of that.
NJ has been very effective in this case. Do you want them to shoot the guy?

So, were you turned down for a job at M1? Is that the basis for these crazy rants?

Let's answer this for the 3rd time. About 5 or 6 years ago the DD was present at BM Downs. The DD had a live Pick 4 ticket with the first 3 legs in. The payoff as posted on the Jumbotron was $18,000.00 should my horse win.

Yes, that is $18,000. The race went and I lost a finish print. OK, tough beat I said. Guess what I found out 10 days later. The "Master Shaker" Monte Gelrod put ANOTHER LOAD across (this was his 5th "PENDING" TC02 positive) and now I was FUXXXXXX out of my money.

So I pursued the thought of filing a civil suit and asking in court to the following: How could it be that the USTA, NJRC, The BIG M, the NJSEA, the NJ court system could allow this "TRAINER" the opportunity to "CONTINUALLY" FUXX Big M Patrons?

The lawyers I spoke to, said all just deal with it. It's part of gambling. No, this is LEGALIIZED gambling and the parties that should enforce the rules DON'T.  Biggest mistake I ever made was not PUSHING this issue.

So when the Robinson case came about in Toronto the DD went to see Hugh Mitchell at WEG. I told him of many concerns. One of those was the above. He asked me to put this in writing. I did. Mr. Mitchell read the letter in open court during Robison's hearing.

When Daley had his case, I also wrote the court. Again, Daley walked out unscathed. Why is it that "LEADING TRAINERS" get a LICENSE to steal. Especially in NJ. After 15 years, you would think the NJRC, the BIG M and the court system would MAYBE, JUST maybe have this figured out. But when Ledford comes back and the facts are made known, you will see how INEPT all the parties were in the Ledford case.

You wanted a reason. I just gave you $18,000 of them.
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2006, 10:26:03 AM »

Biggest mistake I ever made was not PUSHING this issue.

Actually, the biggest mistake you made was not including a known juicer in your ticket.  Wink

Best,
EW
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2006, 10:27:42 AM »

EW to some extent you are correct. The only problem was, this horse was coming OFF another TC02 positive, the start before.
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johnav
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« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2006, 10:48:24 AM »

Let's see:
***M' has a 30-minute recap show aired on huge regional sports channel and on HRTV, a venture that is surely losing money because nobody wants to advertise on a harness racing show.
***M' has an amazing Web site (compared to garbage of other tracks).
***M' makes its archived races available for no charge through Race Replays.com
***M' has promotional low takeouts on Pick 6, PIck 4, etc.
***M' spends $$$ on advertising in New York market.

Conclusion
You, DD, have to be a jilted ex-Big M employee or somebody who was turned down for a job there.



 It is not that big a deal, But Yonkers Raceway has started advertiseing in The Newark Star Ledger, A NJ Newpaper.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2006, 01:52:59 PM »

EW to some extent you are correct. The only problem was, this horse was coming OFF another TC02 positive, the start before.

Daley:

While I understand your anger, we are a nation of laws, and the issue at hand was due process.

The Gelrod positives in question took place before the New Jersey Supreme Court had ruled in the Jim Campbell case. Until that ruling, which approved the use of the "black box" technology and methodology employed by the NJSP lab, the NJRC had no choice but to grant stays to anyone appealing their TCO2 positives.

Campbell had won his case in the Appellate Court, which disapproved the testing method and reversed his suspension. If the NJRC did not grant stays in all the TCO2 positives under appeal, including Gelrod's,  and Campbell's reversal was upheld by the New Jersey Supreme Court, the state would have been on the hook for potentially huge civil damages to a number of trainers, all of whom deserved getting booted from the business, not enrichment via civil judgments for having their constitutional rights denied by the NJRC.

Your continual references to the Daley case are 100% bogus. Daley did not "get off" on any charges. He received the maximum 6 month suspension, and fine, permitted under NJRC rules for a second TCO2 violation. He received an additional 90 days for possession of hypodermic needles/syringes and unlabeled medications. If you want to argue that the penalties prescribed by NJRC regulation are inadequate, I can accept that as a reasonable opinion, but to say he "got off" is just 100% untrue.

In the criminal action against Daley, he also did not "get off." He received the standard sentence, which is essentially probation, for a first time offender found guilty of possession of drug paraphernalia and unlabeled medication. Once the state was unable to prove that any of the drugs in his possession were illegal, they could not pursue any more serious charges. The crime he committed was so minor that the case was tried in municipal court and not in New Jersey State Superior Court. Again, you may not like the outcome, but it is a matter of law and due process.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2006, 02:04:03 PM »

Oh I see now, when the state lab cannot break the JUICE down, the prosecutor says ok Mr. Daley. Sorry we imposed on you, how about settling for PROBATION.

If there were no charges, why was the case heard in court? Because the STATE wanted to pursue the case but couldn't because of an INADEQUATE LAB. I TALKED to the court. Again your thoughts hold no water. The NJ court system SUCKS, PERIOD. The NJRC SUCKS, PERIOD. The investigative authorities in NJ SUCK PERIOD. Big M management SUCKS, PERIOD.

IT has for the last 15 years and will for the next 15.  rat 's watching  rat s benifitting rat 's.

Hey NJ: Can I POST DATE YOU A CHECK FOR $18,000. I WILL MAKE IT GOOD IN 2050. Ok Grin.

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njhorseman
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« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2006, 02:14:44 PM »

Oh I see now, when the state lab cannot break the JUICE down, the prosecutor says ok Mr. Daley. Sorry we imposed on you, how about settling for PROBATION.

If there were no charges, why was the case heard in court? Because the STATE wanted to pursue the case but couldn't because of an INADEQUATE LAB. I TALKED to the court. Again your thoughts hold no water. The NJ court system SUCKS, PERIOD. The NJRC SUCKS, PERIOD. The investigative authorities in NJ SUCK PERIOD. Big M management SUCKS, PERIOD.

IT has for the last 15 years and will for the next 15.  rat 's watching  rat s benifitting rat 's.

Hey NJ: Can I POST DATE YOU A CHECK FOR $18,000. I WILL MAKE IT GOOD IN 2050. Ok Grin.



You've said not one word that refutes the facts I have laid out, but there's nothing new about that.

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« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2006, 02:23:39 PM »

The real trick would be to recruit bettors ON-TRACK by offering distinct rebate advantages for attending live (and therefore helping the purse account and tracks the most).  For example, you could lower take 3-5% across the board, but then offer an additional 5% rebate on live wagers.  I would need to do in-depth research to find the exact price points, but something along these lines.

Once again, I want to stress that I'm talking ONLY about off-shore books that DO NOT pool. 

Now on that we agree,EW.   Wink   And if tracks started offering rebates for ON track wagers, they should realize that most of that rebated money is going to go back into the windows, so the hypothetical 5% that you mentioned, would likely be more like 1 or 2% net cost to them.  Or even offer a sliding scale, that is weighted in favor of the higher tiers, just like the books do now.

As for tracks that charge admission, well everyone *** about that, I say do NOT waive the fee, but instead pool it, and when it gets up to $100,000, give it AWAY to the fans.  Announce it in the programs... and watch it build like a pick 6 carryover.  Then give away say.....$50k to one  lucky patron.........$25k to another........then $5k to 3 persons.....and 10 $1,000 winners.

People would be lined up to pay that $3.50 admission (or parking), and get their buns into that track!

Well, we can dream, cant we? Cheesy
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2006, 02:24:42 PM »

So you now agree the NJSP SUCK, THE NJRC SUCK, the BIG M SUCK, the court SYSTEM SUCKS.

Finally we agree. That was ez.
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