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Author Topic: NIce numbers for OPENING NIGHT NJ and Night 2. Sure.  (Read 3134 times)
Buffaloboy
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2006, 01:29:55 PM »


The 2005 opener had 9 trots. That is not a more attractive card that this year's opener.

You cant be taken seriously when you say that the 2005 Meadowlands opener with 12 of the 13 races being stakes races and six of the 12 stakes races being Breeders Crown races is not more attractive then the 2006 opener cause the 2005 card had nine trots ... may I remind you that the 2006 opener had trots in five of their 11 races.

Bottom line here is all you and DailyDaley have been doing is trying to predict the demise of The Meadowlands and now trying to use a flawed 2005-2006 card to card comparison to proclaim yourselves as right.

Now if you want to go around telling us the Meadowlands is on their way to a slow death, how about you show us proof that those people and the money leaving the Meadowlands have gone over to Yonkers

I dont mean some pathetic effort to say that Yonkers 2006 compared to Yonkers 2004 when they last raced ... show us that Meadowlands money and fans have gone back to Yonkers
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2006, 01:41:08 PM »

You cant be taken seriously when you say that the 2005 Meadowlands opener with 12 of the 13 races being stakes races and six of the 12 stakes races being Breeders Crown races is not more attractive then the 2006 opener cause the 2005 card had nine trots ... may I remind you that the 2006 opener had trots in five of their 11 races.

Bottom line here is all you and DailyDaley have been doing is trying to predict the demise of The Meadowlands and now trying to use a flawed 2005-2006 card to card comparison to proclaim yourselves as right.

Now if you want to go around telling us the Meadowlands is on their way to a slow death, how about you show us proof that those people and the money leaving the Meadowlands have gone over to Yonkers

I dont mean some pathetic effort to say that Yonkers 2006 compared to Yonkers 2004 when they last raced ... show us that Meadowlands money and fans have gone back to Yonkers

There's no question that the Big M handle has taken a distinct and large downturn. I can't even remember the last time they didn't do $3M on a Saturday.

I'm not sure if it's the slots, the additional tracks, or just a general downturn in the industry.  But, there's no doubt handle is off...

Best,
EW
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Buffaloboy
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2006, 01:50:05 PM »

Night 2 at Bowel Movement Downs

Meadowlands Live Handle: $542,022 |   Total Handle: $2,647,669 |

On-site Handle: $2,073,928 |   Attendance: 6,831

An average of almost $80 per patron on the "LIVE CLASSIC" card on a Saturday night. WOW Grin.

And then again those same patrons wagered about $225 per person on other races.

Yep - Those Yonkers Slots. No impact on Big M racing. I wonder what Chris and NJ had for breakfast this morning?

Maybe that John Campbell interview, yummie. John was right about this also. Something is "taking off at the head of the stretch".



Again with a flawed comparison. Ok The Meadowlands had 6831 who bet an average of $80 on Meadowlands races ... thats racing only as The Meadowlands has noother entertainment to offer ... what you cant or wont tell us is how many thousands more people then that walked into and then out of Yonkers Raceway yesterday and never placed any bet at all on any race at all ... yep all those thousands of people maybe kicking up their racing purposes but when you cant get them to take notice of the racing that is a failure from an interest point of view.

I dont understand your desire to show that your prediction of the demise of The Meadowlands is somehow connected to The Ledford Gang's arrest, your predicted dismissal of their charges or the John Campbell article.

What I do understand is you havent shown any proof that the fans and handle have left The Meadowlands and gone to Yonkers and you havent shown any article of quote from anybody of even small importance showing people stopped going to The Meadowlands or arent betting it cause of corruption or support for the Ledfords.

Maybe if you can find it you can change our opinions.
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Buffaloboy
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2006, 02:03:09 PM »

There's no question that the Big M handle has taken a distinct and large downturn. I can't even remember the last time they didn't do $3M on a Saturday.

I'm not sure if it's the slots, the additional tracks, or just a general downturn in the industry.  But, there's no doubt handle is off...

Best,
EW


EW, you can say the attendance and handle at The Meadowlands are off but it is just silly to do it in the manner that these two are doing it.

You cant tell me a Breeders Crown card with 12 or 13 races being stakes races is somehow comparable to Friday night's card cause the Breeders Crown card had mostly trots and both were opening night. I mean come on.

You, yourself just said you arent sure of the reason for the drop. You can at least say that you arent sure. These two havd proclaimed it to be the outpouring of love for Yonkers slots and the hatred of fand from the Ledford arrest and Campbell article ... based upon what?

Oh yeah, they base it on the handle divided by attendance at the Meadowlands and they do that without being able to tell us how many people went to Yonkers or how much was bet there.

Im old fashioned but an opinion maybe an opinion but to call it a fact needs proof and these two havent shown any yet
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When will Barn To Wire finally do the right thing and ban Clockerterry & Edwarren for their continued lies, anti-American & anti-semetic statements and their general disrutpive stupidity? 

ďThe answer to a government thatís too big is to stop feeding its growth.Ē - President Ronald W. Reagan
the DailyDaley
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2006, 09:14:12 PM »


Again with a flawed comparison. Ok The Meadowlands had 6831 who bet an average of $80 on Meadowlands races ... thats racing only as The Meadowlands has noother entertainment to offer ... what you cant or wont tell us is how many thousands more people then that walked into and then out of Yonkers Raceway yesterday and never placed any bet at all on any race at all ... yep all those thousands of people maybe kicking up their racing purposes but when you cant get them to take notice of the racing that is a failure from an interest point of view.

I dont understand your desire to show that your prediction of the demise of The Meadowlands is somehow connected to The Ledford Gang's arrest, your predicted dismissal of their charges or the John Campbell article.

What I do understand is you havent shown any proof that the fans and handle have left The Meadowlands and gone to Yonkers and you havent shown any article of quote from anybody of even small importance showing people stopped going to The Meadowlands or arent betting it cause of corruption or support for the Ledfords.

Maybe if you can find it you can change our opinions.

I know what I can do. John Campbell's voice was dubbed. It wasn't really John's. It was a figment of my imagination. You have a 2 1/2 to 3 to 1 ratio, betting on a live card as opposed to simucasting at another track, Yonkers opening and LEDFORD coming back.

WHAT ELSE do you people need. BRAIL CARDS. Get real geezer.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2006, 09:20:03 PM »

And I forgot. 20% cuts at ALL NJSEA affliated facilities geezer.
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Esab
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2006, 09:24:56 AM »


EW, you can say the attendance and handle at The Meadowlands are off but it is just silly to do it in the manner that these two are doing it.

You cant tell me a Breeders Crown card with 12 or 13 races being stakes races is somehow comparable to Friday night's card cause the Breeders Crown card had mostly trots and both were opening night. I mean come on.



Look Buffalo. The 2005 opener had 9 trots. 7 races had 7 or fewer starters. 4 races had odds-on favorites.
In no way, shape, or form was it a more attractive betting card than this year's opener.
Then you were provided with the opening Saturday 2005-2006 card to card numbers.
Going forward do the work yourself. Paste the following link into your browser and type in any dates you wish:

http://www.thebigm.com/results.asp?racedt=11/17/2006
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njhorseman
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2006, 09:28:57 AM »

There's not a horseman or racetrack executive in NJ who wasn't expecting the opening of slots at Yonkers, coupled with the new slots in PA, to deal a serious blow to NJ racing.

Now that the day has finally arrived, we will have the proof to go to the governor and legislature to put the wheels in motion toward having slots at the Meadowlands. While I believe we will now be able to overcome the objections of the Atlantic City casinos, the political machine in NJ is a lumbering giant, and it may take years to actually get the slots in place. Look how long it took after the law was passed to get account betting, and the first OTB shops are just getting ready to open, years later.

I think the question is not whether we will have slots at the tracks in NJ, but how long it will take. While the state owned Meadowlands and Monmouth Park will be able to survive the delay, albeit with a diminished quality of racing, can Freehold survive a delay? I hope so, but I have my doubts.
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2006, 09:57:49 AM »

There's not a horseman or racetrack executive in NJ who wasn't expecting the opening of slots at Yonkers, coupled with the new slots in PA, to deal a serious blow to NJ racing.

Now that the day has finally arrived, we will have the proof to go to the governor and legislature to put the wheels in motion toward having slots at the Meadowlands. While I believe we will now be able to overcome the objections of the Atlantic City casinos, the political machine in NJ is a lumbering giant, and it may take years to actually get the slots in place. Look how long it took after the law was passed to get account betting, and the first OTB shops are just getting ready to open, years later.

I think the question is not whether we will have slots at the tracks in NJ, but how long it will take. While the state owned Meadowlands and Monmouth Park will be able to survive the delay, albeit with a diminished quality of racing, can Freehold survive a delay? I hope so, but I have my doubts.

Paul - It looks like the whole NJSEA is a lumbering "SLEEPING" giant. You would thought that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE somebody would have the intellectual ability light bulb to start those wheels into motion some time ago.

But then again, KAOPECTATE doesn't respond that quickly either.

Like Paul Harvey says - "GOOD DAY".
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njhorseman
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« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2006, 10:03:13 AM »

Paul - It looks like the whole NJSEA is a lumbering "SLEEPING" giant. You would thought that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE somebody would have the intellectual ability light bulb to start those wheels into motion some time ago.

But then again, KAOPECTATE doesn't respond that quickly either.

Like Paul Harvey says - "GOOD DAY".

Daley:

The wheels were put in motion years ago. The best we were able to do until now was to get the four year, $86 million subsidy, which expires at the end of 2007.

The Atlantic City casino lobby is pretty powerful, and overcoming it requires the type of sledgehammer blow we are now feeling from Yonkers.
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Grinder
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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2006, 10:26:02 AM »

Remember also, a lot of offshore books are taking action on the BigM, that did not last year.  That industries overall handle is estimated at $3.3 billion this year, compared to 1.8 billion in '05.   How much of that is horseracing, who knows? But their overall trend itself is worth mentioning. Has any brick and mortar casino or racetrack shown that kind of explosive growth in the last 24 months?

ADW brought horseplayers to their computers, and once it did........the enterprising off-shore books jumped on that market, and with their rebates, and deposit bonuses, essentially stole a BIG piece of the BIG M's (and horsemens) money. Yet I never see much mention of it.  Pretty sweet for them. .....They get to sell the racing product, but dont have to buy it.

Without slots, I dont really see any growth potential for any track in the USA.  Survival is even in doubt, let alone growth, for Christ sake!

Write or call your State Representative regularly and complain.

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johnav
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2006, 10:29:47 AM »

 New Jersey will get Slots at the Racetracks eventually...... Harrah's Entertainment which owns and runs most of the AC Casino's will not have a leg to stand on once they are asked the question..... OK, Harrah's you wont allow racetracks to have Slots in NJ but it is Ok for you to open "racinos" in PA and LA???
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2006, 10:45:27 AM »

Remember also, a lot of offshore books are taking action on the BigM, that did not last year.  That industries overall handle is estimated at $3.3 billion this year, compared to 1.8 billion in '05.   How much of that is horseracing, who knows? But their overall trend itself is worth mentioning. Has any brick and mortar casino or racetrack shown that kind of explosive growth in the last 24 months?

ADW brought horseplayers to their computers, and once it did........the enterprising off-shore books jumped on that market, and with their rebates, and deposit bonuses, essentially stole a BIG piece of the BIG M's (and horsemens) money. Yet I never see much mention of it.  Pretty sweet for them. .....They get to sell the racing product, but dont have to buy it.

Without slots, I dont really see any growth potential for any track in the USA.  Survival is even in doubt, let alone growth, for Christ sake!

Write or call your State Representative regularly and complain.



Every reputable off-shore took the BigM last year.  There's definitely a chance that more people are playing this year, but it definitely isn't about increased ability to get action down.

Although I don't want to see the horsemen hurt, remember: in business, you can only create a competitor if the opportunity exists.  High takeout and small pools allow the off-shores to thrive.

Best,
EW
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2006, 10:58:49 AM »

But Ed, they are not competing. They have no product at all, and bring nothing to the community. They let you and I build the infrastructure, then jump on the backs of it, and take the action.

I would be all for them, and their rebates, if the racetracks in some way benefitted from their generosity.

Their impact is all negative in horseracing, unlike other sports that do not depend on pari-mutuel handle. (which, by the way, they have helped shrink)

Have a good one, Ive gotta run.

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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2006, 11:07:07 AM »

But Ed, they are not competing. They have no product at all, and bring nothing to the community. They let you and I build the infrastructure, then jump on the backs of it, and take the action.

I would be all for them, and their rebates, if the racetracks in some way benefitted from their generosity.

Their impact is all negative in horseracing, unlike other sports that do not depend on pari-mutuel handle. (which, by the way, they have helped shrink)

Have a good one, Ive gotta run.



Oh, but they are competing.  They are vying for handle, just the same as the tracks.  Just because they have a different infrastructure...it doesn't mean that they don't vie for the same money -- because they do.

Remember, the risk that these places takes FAR outpaces that of the track...regardless of if they put on the show or not.

Overall, my point is that the racetracks are leaving the door open for off-shores and reabte shops, because they basically screw their customers left and right.  Tell you what -- you want on-track handle to shoot up?  Make it so a 7-10% rebate is paid instantly on-track.  They'd still be holding 10% on win, and 15% on multis (in IL), and half of that (roughly, minus the State) would be much better than 1.5% of the current takes...I guarantee.

It doesn't matter as much now that I'm in TN, but I'll state that it will be a cold day in heck before they get my handle...when I can have 8.9% back on win, and 16.9% back on tris.  When you have one group willing to pay tens/hundreds thousands for your business, and another wanting to TAKE 1% and then hit me for parking, eating, etc...it's a no-brainer.

Best,
EW
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Terry Hunt
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2006, 11:47:26 AM »

comparative an astute analysis of the comparitive value for wagering with an off-shore rebate shop versus live at the track.  For EW and for thousands of other gamblers the differential on net return is substantial.  So much so that the account wagering business has grown exponentially over the last few years.  I don't think there is anyone who could make a logical argument against his numbers.

Still it is not an apples-to-apples comparison.  The rebate shops surely don't charge for parking or admission or programs or food.  They don't even have a parking lot, or parking attendants, or a physical plant to maintain, or food to purchase, or a barkeeper to pay, etc.

This is not to say that the rebate shops haven't found a niche, and provide an attractively priced service.

If the tracks made all parking free, charged no admission, gave away the programs and comped all food and drinks for everyone who came to the race track savvy bettors like EW (just as an example, not a personal shot at EW)would still sit at the track with a cell phone and make the wagers with the rebate shops because the net return is better.  All the while enjoying free food and the thrill of live racing.

I am not making any excuses for race track ownership/management because there is clearly a lot more they should be doing for our customers, but I am trying to make the point that to make certain comparisons between running a race track and running an off-shore wagering shop are not valid.

Account wagering is definitely a huge part of the future of horse racing.  Gambling customers have become more sophisticated and demanding due to the technological advancements that make wagering more convenient.  The horse racing industry needs to be allowed to develop solutions to the demands of their customers.  The state and federal laws need to be changed.

Give the horse racing industry a chance to create an account wagering system that is (a) state regulated, so that there is benefit to the state and
binoculars established in such a manner that tracks and horsemen shared equally in the revenue stream.  Then, and only then, can the claim be made that the rebate shops are "competing" with the race tracks.

At this point in time they are simply stealing business away.
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Terry Hunt
njhorseman
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2006, 11:50:03 AM »

New Jersey will get Slots at the Racetracks eventually...... Harrah's Entertainment which owns and runs most of the AC Casino's will not have a leg to stand on once they are asked the question..... OK, Harrah's you wont allow racetracks to have Slots in NJ but it is Ok for you to open "racinos" in PA and LA???

That question doesn't hold any water, because Harrah's reaps the benefits (profits) of those racinos because they own them. They won't get a dime from slots at the Meadowlands...UNLESS...and this could happen...the deal includes selling the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park to a casino company or partnership of casino companies.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2006, 11:54:57 AM »

Oh, but they are competing.  They are vying for handle, just the same as the tracks.  Just because they have a different infrastructure...it doesn't mean that they don't vie for the same money -- because they do.

They are competing the same way a thief selling a load of stolen Rolexes from the trunk of his car competes with a legitimate jewelry store. 
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Michigan Dale
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2006, 11:58:20 AM »

Must agree with Terry here.   'Stealing away' the business is exactly what's happening and the comparisons are apples to oranges.   The live racetrack experience is being compromised and cannot be replaced by the techno-wagering public.   The very land on which any racetrack sits is valuable and scarce.   That being said, its no deep dark secret that tracks are folding their tents or considering selling out to a developer as the highest and best use of the land is changing.   Point is, the day may well come that there won't be any racetracks....and if there are no racetracks there will be no wagering on the horses, only on some video machine made to look like the live races we all once knew and loved.   That, would be a real shame.  Just as horsemen need and work hard for a return on investment, the tracks (love em' or hate em') are entitled to make a profit as well.   Nobody is in business just for the fun of it.  Fun is great but it does not always pay the bills.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2006, 12:00:04 PM »

That question doesn't hold any water, because Harrah's reaps the benefits (profits) of those racinos because they own them. They won't get a dime from slots at the Meadowlands...UNLESS...and this could happen...the deal includes selling the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park to a casino company or partnership of casino companies.

Another deal that might get the AC casinos on board for slots at the tracks is to let the casinos run the slots operations at the tracks while the state keeps ownership.
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njhorseman
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2006, 12:16:34 PM »

Another deal that might get the AC casinos on board for slots at the tracks is to let the casinos run the slots operations at the tracks while the state keeps ownership.

In my opinion, the fees they might earning from just being the racino operator would be insufficient to overcome the casinos objections to slots at the track.
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tonymfan
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« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2006, 12:24:01 PM »

In my opinion, the fees they might earning from just being the racino operator would be insufficient to overcome the casinos objections to slots at the track.

Maybe. Harrah's was willing to settle for a modest cut to run the slots at Aqueduct. Just to be in the market IMO. If the A.C. casinos see a big hit from the Philadelphia slots and another hit from the New York City area slots they might be willing to do business or risk being left out of that market.

As always "we'll see"!!!!!
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tonymfan
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« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2006, 01:43:49 PM »

Yep - Those Yonkers Slots. No impact on Big M racing.

DD

I read that wagering was way down on NJ flats racing at Monmouth and Meadowlands also. All year. Did Yonkers slots do that also? 
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the DailyDaley
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« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2006, 01:55:14 PM »

DD

I read that wagering was way down on NJ flats racing at Monmouth and Meadowlands also. All year. Did Yonkers slots do that also? 

Maybe people are just fed up with all the BIG M / NJSEA bull.

But then again, did YOU get your HERPE$$ tests. I heard there was some tainted money in NJ. Once again, you have to spoon feed people. Try to think what's outside the box. Rather than what's in it. Ok.

JUST ONCE!
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edwardwilliam
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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2006, 03:08:56 PM »

comparative an astute analysis of the comparitive value for wagering with an off-shore rebate shop versus live at the track.  For EW and for thousands of other gamblers the differential on net return is substantial.  So much so that the account wagering business has grown exponentially over the last few years.  I don't think there is anyone who could make a logical argument against his numbers.

Still it is not an apples-to-apples comparison.  The rebate shops surely don't charge for parking or admission or programs or food.  They don't even have a parking lot, or parking attendants, or a physical plant to maintain, or food to purchase, or a barkeeper to pay, etc.

This is not to say that the rebate shops haven't found a niche, and provide an attractively priced service.

If the tracks made all parking free, charged no admission, gave away the programs and comped all food and drinks for everyone who came to the race track savvy bettors like EW (just as an example, not a personal shot at EW)would still sit at the track with a cell phone and make the wagers with the rebate shops because the net return is better.  All the while enjoying free food and the thrill of live racing.

I am not making any excuses for race track ownership/management because there is clearly a lot more they should be doing for our customers, but I am trying to make the point that to make certain comparisons between running a race track and running an off-shore wagering shop are not valid.

Account wagering is definitely a huge part of the future of horse racing.  Gambling customers have become more sophisticated and demanding due to the technological advancements that make wagering more convenient.  The horse racing industry needs to be allowed to develop solutions to the demands of their customers.  The state and federal laws need to be changed.

Give the horse racing industry a chance to create an account wagering system that is (a) state regulated, so that there is benefit to the state and
binoculars established in such a manner that tracks and horsemen shared equally in the revenue stream.  Then, and only then, can the claim be made that the rebate shops are "competing" with the race tracks.

At this point in time they are simply stealing business away.

It's important to note that there's two different business models here -- the rebate shop and the off-shore.  The "rebate shop" essentially functions just like any out-of-State simulcast location: money goes into the pools, and a simulcast fee is paid.  In the case of my shop, it's 4%, split equally by the tracks and purse account.

This entity is really no different than any other place that a track "sends" their signal.  To illustrate, when people bet the Big M in Chicago, Chicago gets around 14-22'ish% of the bet, and they don't have to pay to "run the show" in New Jersey.  Although some might argue that Chicago earns the right by "putting on their own show," I don't agree.  The only caveat/issue comes with IN-STATE bettors (like I was while I was home) that use rebate shops.  Although you actually make MORE from out-of-State folks (because the simulcast fees paid are higher than that of out-of-State tracks or OTBs, mostly), it's the in-State bettors that could potentially hurt, because the earn would be much higher if they actually went to the track or an OTB.

Alas, for these shops, this is where I make the argument -- and one that the tracks should realize loud and clear -- that the increased handle due to rebates MORE than makes up for smaller commissions earned.  For myself, they were earning 2% instead of an average take of roughly 9%.  However, under a take out of approximately 10.5-11% (which I pay across the board), my wagering increased approximately 7-9x.  You can see how this is actually PROFITABLE for the tracks to have me betting at a rebate shop...even in State.  Another benefit most ignore would be the increased pool size which can naturally bring in other money because it makes the signal more attractive.

(takes breath, haha)

The off-shore is the model that everyone picks apart, and I can't entirely fault that.  These groups, maintained in out-of-country locations (and soon to be -- possibly -- under fire somewhat from the gambling bill) essentially operate as "quasi-legal" (yes, it's still a gray area) bookies.  Handle "can" be directed off into a mutuel pool, but for the most part -- the track sees none.

Now, I won't dispute that these groups take away from the pools and horsemen.  However, I think that people involved naturally under-estimate how much the tracks CAUSE people to use these services.  With a lower takeout, it would make it tougher and tougher for these places to exist (as it's easier to turn a profit); and much, much tougher for them to offer sizeable -- if any -- rebates.

Now, outside of the realm of takeout, I will always make the argument that these books are definitely businesses, which much be run with far more skill than any racetrack location.  Anytime you are purely taking on risk by accepting non-pooled wagers, I'm of the opinion that you earn your profit.  Obviously this doesn't fit within the scope of the purse account -- but, as I stated above, if the tracks wanted to out maneuver these shops, they could certainly try.  However, as typical of "supported" industries, they would rather cry to the government and try to keep the 17-25% take, rather than actively adjusting like would be necessary in any other free-market business.

These are just my thoughts, and I'm sure there will be some that don't agree, and some that maybe don't even understand.  Let me know if anyone has any questions.

Best,
EW
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Stick to Fantasyland pal, because you'll NEVER make it in the real world - TC
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